Le Grand Richards lying again

[_Albion]

Well, Bhodi, perhaps you are right...my response was a bit derisive. It was a quick response to the charge from a Mormon that conventional Christianity is peculiar and by implication Mormonism is not. Kind of like Al Capone complaining because someone short changed five cents at the cigar store.

Just by way of response to somethbing I think you posted. I am not opposed to Mormonism "at all costs". My time on this board represents a tiny part of my life. I think you fail to grasp the seriousness of the charge from Jesus himself to Christians contained in the Great Commission. I get rather tired of what to me is Mormon whining that they are just out there living their religion so why don't Christian just leave them alone. The Mormon Church, I understand, has more than 50,000 "missionaries" (perhaps more with the current surge in full swing) knocking on doors seeking members for their church. The vast majority of these proselytizers are knocking on the doors of the already churched. Their message is a full out assault on conventional Christianity and promotes a false gospel, a false God, a false Christ and a false hope. I oppose from my core the counterfeit gospel of Mormonism along with any such groups, Moonies, Jehovah''s Witnesses, Scientologists, whoever, who would steer people into religious systems as a replacement for salvation in Christ alone. I have never initiated a thread on this board to argue any position but I do respond where I see what to me are false arguments for these false ideologies and attacks on conventional Biblical understanding. If you see that as negative, so be it. I shall be happy to face my Savior having offended by speaking up than by sitting, as it were, on my hands. At its very core the Christian faith is not about intellect nor scholarship...there is no one in scripture who is saved by either...it is about faith pure and simple, a process adapted to the highest and the lowest, the brightest and the dullest. That I confront the claims of Mormonism is because I live in an area where it is most obvious and I have some knowledge of it....perhaps if I lived next door the the Watchtower they would be my focus. You can understand my perspective or not...that is your choice...either way it matters little to me.

[_GR33N]

In his old age, Harris rejoined the LDS Church and was brought to Utah where he died. But, there is no record of Harris ever renouncing his "greater" testimony for Shakerism.

Therefore, just because there is no record of the witnesses of the B. of M. renouncing their testimony about the B. of M. that does not prove that they still believed it! If they truly believed it, why did they all apostatize from the LDS church?

This is interesting. It is known that Martin Harris rejoined the LDS Church, and died in Utah. There is also a second hand source about Harris' beliefs. Yet the fact that following this second hand statement Harris took action that would seemingly invalidate the statement is minimized, and the second hand statement is elevated above the first hand actions, since the second hand statement supports the presupposed beliefs.

Is there any first hand evidence from the actual individuals of repudiation of the Book of Mormon?

In the book, Ten Years before the Mast the author interviews Martin Harris after he arrived in the Salt Lake Valley at the approximate age of 90. The author states that Harris "did believe that Mormonism is the pure gospel of Christ". The author goes on to say that he believed "that he (Martin Harris) died in that faith".

[Guest]

On the subject of Martin Harris, the following information is provided by "Mormon Think":

Martin Harris was anything but a skeptical witness. He was known by many of his peers as an unstable, gullible and superstitious man. Reports assert that he and the other witnesses never literally saw the gold plates, but only an object said to be the plates, covered with a cloth. Here's some accounts that show the superstitious side of Martin Harris:

Ronald W. Walker, "Martin Harris: Mormonism's Early Convert," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19 (Winter 1986): 34-35. "Once while reading scripture, he reportedly mistook a candle's sputtering as a sign that the devil desired him to stop. Another time he excitedly awoke from his sleep believing that a creature as large as a dog had been upon his chest, though a nearby associate could find nothing to confirm his fears. Several hostile and perhaps unreliable accounts told of visionary experiences with Satan and Christ, Harris once reporting that Christ had been poised on a roof beam."

John A. Clark letter, August 31, 1840 in EMD, 2: 271: "No matter where he went, he saw visions and supernatural appearances all around him. He told a gentleman in Palmyra, after one of his excursions to Pennsylvania, while the translation of the Book of Mormon was going on, that on the way he met the Lord Jesus Christ, who walked along by the side of him in the shape of a deer for two or three miles, talking with him as familiarly as one man talks with another." According to two Ohio newspapers, shortly after Harris arrived in Kirtland he began claiming to have "seen Jesus Christ and that he is the handsomest man he ever did see. He has also seen the Devil, whom he described as a very sleek haired fellow with four feet, and a head like that of a Jack-ass." Vogel,EMD 2: 271, note 32.

The Reverend John A. Clark, who knew Harris, said Martin “had always been a firm believer in dreams, and visions and supernatural appearances, such as apparitions and ghosts, and therefore was a fit subject for such men as Smith and his colleagues to operate on.” Lorenzo Saunders said Harris was a “great man for seeing spooks.” Presbyterian minister Jesse Townsend of Palmyra called Harris a “visionary fanatic.” Reference: http://www.irr.org/mit/first-vision/1827b-account.html



Martin and the Stone Box

The following article comes from the faith-promoting website Martin Harris’s Testimony of the Book of Mormon. The article is presented to re-affirm Martin's testimony of the Book of Mormon. However noticed the part of Martin's testimony we emphasized:

One morning in July I thought I would go to see Brother Harris. He lived about three blocks from my home and I had heard that he was not well. People were coming from far and near to see him and hear his testimony.

When I arrived I found two other men present -- Brother James Joseph Keep and Brother John Godfrey. Brother Harris lay in bed resting on his elbow. “How are you Brother Harris?” I asked. “Oh, pretty well” he replied.

“We came to hear your testimony of the Book of Mormon,” I said. He raised up and said, “Yes, I wish I could make the whole world hear my Testimony.” He stretched out his arm and said, “Brothers I believe there is an angel here to hear what I am going to say to you and you will never forget what I say.”

“The Prophet Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and myself went into a small grove to pray to obtain a promise that we should behold with our own eyes that we could testify to the whole world. At length the angel stood before Oliver and David with the plates in his hand. I had gone a little apart to pray, and in my desperation I asked the prophet to kneel and pray with me. He did so and immediately the angel stood before me and said, “LOOK.” When I glanced at him I fell to the ground but immediately got up and saw the angel turn the leaves of the golden plates over and I said, “IT IS ENOUGH MY LORD AND MY GOD.” I then heard the voice of God say, “THE Book of Mormon IS TRUE AND TRANSLATED CORRECTLY.”

Brother Harris then turned over as if he had no more to say and we made ready to leave. He spoke again and said, “I will tell you of the most wonderful thing that happened, after Joseph received the plates. Three of us, myself and two more, took some tools and went to the hill to dig for more plates of gold or something and indeed we found a stone box. We got quite excited and dug around it very carefully and just when we were ready to lift it up out of the hole, some unseen power slid it back into the hill. We stood and looked at it and one of us tried to drive a crowbar through the lid to hold it, but the crowbar glanced off and the corner of the lid was chipped off.

Sometime that box will be found and you will find one corner of the lid broken and you will know that I have spoken the truth. Brother’s just as sure as you are standing here and see me, just so sure did we see the Angel with the golden plates in his hand. He showed them to me and I promised I would bear witness of this truth both here and hereafter.”

His lips really trembled and tears came to my eyes. I should have liked to ask more, but did not do so. I refreshed myself, shook hands, thanked him and left.

When I think of the day I stood before Martin Harris and saw him stretch forth his hand, raise his voice and bear his testimony, the feeling that thrilled my whole being, I can never forget or express the joy that filled my whole being

Signed as Witnesses:
Clarkston Utah Ole A. Jensen
July 1875 JAMES JOSEPH KEEP
John Godfrey

John H. Gilbert, the typesetter for most of the book, said that he had asked Harris, "Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?" According to Gilbert, Harris "looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, 'No, I saw them with a spiritual eye."[24] Two other Palmyra residents said that Harris told them that he had seen the plates with "the eye of faith" or "spiritual eyes." [25] In 1838, Harris is said to have told an Ohio congregation that "he never saw the plates with his natural eyes, only in vision or imagination."[26]A neighbor of Harris in Kirtland, Ohio, said that Harris "never claimed to have seen [the plates] with his natural eyes, only spiritual vision." [27]

There is plenty more properly referenced material on that website that would present Martin Harris as someone that flitted from religion to religion.

Strangite, Whitmerite, Gladdenite, Williamite, Shaker

Even before he had become a Mormon, Harris had changed his religion at least five times.[16] After Smith's death, Harris continued this earlier pattern, remaining in Kirtland and accepting James J. Strang as Mormonism's new prophet, a prophet with his own set of supernatural plates and witnesses to authenticate them.[17] By 1847, Harris had broken with Strang and accepted the leadership claims of fellow Book of Mormon witness, David Whitmer. Mormon Apostle William E. M'Lellin organized a Whitmerite congregation in Kirtland, and Harris became a member. By 1851, Harris accepted another Latter Day Saint factional leader, Gladden Bishop, as prophet and joined Bishop's Kirtland-based organization.[18] In 1855, Harris joined with the last surviving brother of Joseph Smith, William Smith and declared that William was Joseph's true successor. Harris was also briefly intrigued by the "Roll and Book," a supernatural scripture delivered to the Shakers.[19] By the 1860s, all of these organizations had either dissolved or declined. In 1856, his wife Caroline left him to gather with the Mormons in Utah while he remained in Kirtland and gave tours of the temple to curious visitors.[20]

It is noteworthy that he only rejoined the LDS Church when he ended up penniless and local Mormon's whipped up $200 to help him.

In old age, Harris was left destitute and without a congregation in Kirtland. Eventually, in his poverty, Harris accepted the charity of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who raised $200 to help him move to the Utah Territory in 1870. Harris was rebaptized into the LDS Church shortly after his arrival and lived the last four and a half years of his life with relatives in Cache Valley. He died on June 10, 1875 in Clarkston, Utah and was buried there. A pageant about Harris called "Martin Harris, The Man Who Knew", sponsored by the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is performed annually on August weekends in Clarkston.[21]

http://www.mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm#harris

[_Bhodi]

On the subject of Martin Harris, the following information is provided by "Mormon Think":

None of which shows him recanting.