Original Sin and...

[_subgenius]

Again sub, while you mis represent my position, which is in a nutshell "definitions of good and bad are not universal".

Prove otherwise. Provide one moral value that is universal to humanity.

"the first human "moral" is survival."
viewtopic.php?p=705420#p705420

certainly you must agree.....provided for the win!

[_SteelHead]

I am not moving the goalposts sub. Madeleine says all societies have a rule against adultery. This is demonstrably false. Goalposts not moved. You quibling about semantics, worthless.

And still no example.

[_SteelHead]

I said first, as in chronologically. Not universally. I even provided counter examples of individuals sacrificing themselves. Try again.


And I was using survival very loosely, meaning that morality is often thrown by the wayside when survival is at risk.

[_madeleine]

I am not moving the goalposts sub. Madeleine says all societies have a rule against adultery. This is demonstrably false. Goalposts not moved. You quibling about semantics, worthless.

And still no example.

Do you think "adultery" needs to mean your native cultural understanding?

My culture defines polygamy as adultery, but most cultures are polygynous and do not view polygamy as adultery. Yet, polygynous cultures also define what it means to have fidelity to your partner(s) and what it means to not. So adultery is defined, just not the same as my culture defines it.

[_Themis]

I wouldn't say adultery, but sex in general. Even some animal species can have moral codes of right and wrong. Humans have the most complex, but it is all easily explained through biology.

then please, provide this "easy" and "biological" explanation for examination.

Humans cannot survive without the group. In order for a group to survive and thrive they have to work together which involves rules. There are a variety of rules that can work for different groups. If they don't work then a group will not thrive and probably eventually disappear.

the "well being" of a group....is this an arbitrary notion?

It's a vague statement which involves the survivability of the group.

Your slavery premise is absurd - "considered good...even though....they would view it bad.."?

Most groups that have slaves think it is good to have slaves, but don't think it is good for them or their group to be slaves. Shouldn't be to hard to understand.

again..."well being" of the group?
to claim that a group, any group, simply considers something as "good" in as much as it is "good" does not seem like a coherent theory at this point.

I didn't say anything like you want to interpret it. Perhaps this is why so many find your arguments incoherent.

[_SteelHead]

I am not moving the goalposts sub. Madeleine says all societies have a rule against adultery. This is demonstrably false. Goalposts not moved. You quibling about semantics, worthless.

And still no example.

Do you think "adultery" needs to mean your native cultural understanding?

My culture defines polygamy as adultery, but most cultures are polygynous and do not view polygamy as adultery. Yet, polygynous cultures also define what it means to have fidelity to your partner(s) and what it means to not. So adultery is defined, just not the same as my culture defines it.

A culture that has no taboo against against sleeping with whomever you want whether you are "paired", married, or elsewise in a relationship has no definition of adultery per se, as it seems to be in the case of the Hawaiian culture previously referenced.

There are other cultures where individuals were allowed to have concubines, wifes, lovers, courtesans, "extra marital" relationships with or without consent of other partners where it was not defined as bad morally. Fuedal Japan was such if memory serves.

[_Quasimodo]

Original sin is such a high bar to cross. Sinning is easy and often a lot of fun, but coming up with an original sin (one never tried before) is very difficult. All the good ones have been tried many times before.

[_subgenius]

Humans cannot survive without the group.

yet Gautama Buddha, Yoshida Kenko, Baal Shem Tov, Hsu Yun, Rabbi Yisroel Salanter, and countless other famous and not-so famous hermits have proven your statement wrong.

In order for a group to survive and thrive they have to work together which involves rules.

There are a variety of rules that can work for different groups. If they don't work then a group will not thrive and probably eventually disappear.

let me get this point clear......what do you mean by "work"?

It's a vague statement which involves the survivability of the group.

so, you share the contrary position steelhead offer to rebut steelhead's position, in that the first moral is survival?

Most groups that have slaves think it is good to have slaves, but don't think it is good for them or their group to be slaves. Shouldn't be to hard to understand.

hmmm...but Americans had slaves and thought it was "bad"...even convincing the slaves that it was "bad".....your hypothesis here seems arbitrary and beside the point.
I stand behind your original incoherent thought which read as:
""considered good...even though....they would view it bad.."?"

I didn't say anything like you want to interpret it. Perhaps this is why so many find your arguments incoherent.

where did i misquote you? or are you content to rely on the "no i didn't" rebuttal?

[_subgenius]

A culture that has no taboo against against sleeping with whomever you want whether you are "paired", married, or elsewise in a relationship has no definition of adultery per se, as it seems to be in the case of the Hawaiian culture previously referenced.

There are other cultures where individuals were allowed to have concubines, wifes, lovers, courtesans, "extra marital" relationships with or without consent of other partners where it was not defined as bad morally. Fuedal Japan was such if memory serves.

you seem to spend a great deal of effort detailing how some cultures like fried chicken, some like baked chicken, some like broiled chicken, and some like roasted chicken, some even like chicken wings, while others just like chicken eggs.......and then you would claim that it is my burden to prove that all these cultures like chicken.....all because you say you don't even believe there is any chicken in the first place.

[_subgenius]

...(snip)...morality is often thrown by the wayside when survival is at risk.

so to paraphrase your earlier premise with this one:

morality is often thrown by the wayside when morality is at risk

Got It!