The Question: Are Mormons Christian? A Biblical Approach

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_maklelan
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Re: The Question: Are Mormons Christian? A New Approach

Post by _maklelan »

sr1030 wrote:Whether or not I am a follower of Christ or a Christian is not relevant to whether or not the LDS Church is a Christian Church.

sr


It is if your self-identity as a Christian is the reference point for your conclusions about the Christianity of Mormonism, which it unquestionably is. Quit playing games. Can you defend your rhetoric or not?
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_sr1030
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Re: The Question: Are Mormons Christian? A New Approach

Post by _sr1030 »

maklelan wrote:
sr1030 wrote:Whether or not I am a follower of Christ or a Christian is not relevant to whether or not the LDS Church is a Christian Church.

sr


It is if your self-identity as a Christian is the reference point for your conclusions about the Christianity of Mormonism, which it unquestionably is. Quit playing games. Can you defend your rhetoric or not?


I am not playing games. I have done as you have requested and referenced the Bible only so far. I clearly demonstrated that Christ taught that there is only one true, real or genuine God and that you indicate LDS do not teach or believe this by your statement.

My Christianity is not relevant to this conversation.

Clearly LDS do not follow Christ's teaching of one true God, therefore not Christian or followers of Christ.

Sr
_maklelan
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Re: The Question: Are Mormons Christian? A New Approach

Post by _maklelan »

sr1030 wrote:I am not playing games. I have done as you have requested and referenced the Bible only so far. I clearly demonstrated that Christ taught that there is only one true, real or genuine God and that you indicate LDS do not teach or believe this by your statement.


And that kind of rhetoric is no different from saying the Broncos are the only real football team in the AFC. As I have pointed out, the rest of the Bible flatly rejects the notion that no other gods exist. Even Jesus himself points out the Bible refers to others as gods, and then asserts that the scripture cannot be broken.

sr1030 wrote:My Christianity is not relevant to this conversation.

Clearly LDS do not follow Christ's teaching of one true God, therefore not Christian or followers of Christ.

Sr


Your exegesis is presuppositional and naïve, as is your criteria for determining who is and isn't a Christian. You've refused to address any of my concerns and have instead just made naked assertions and stomped your foot when challenged.
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_ludwigm
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Re: The Question: Are Mormons Christian? A New Approach

Post by _ludwigm »

del
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_jordon3
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Re: The Question: Are Mormons Christian? A New Approach

Post by _jordon3 »

.
sr1030 wrote:The question should be then, do any other true, real, or genuine Gods, or gods exist. It is obvious from your statement that for LDS "no other deities matter" that you do not deny you believe in the existence of other true, real or genuine Gods or gods. Christ taught that there is only one true, real or genuine God that exists in the passage I referenced for you.


Sr1030 , Christians are in agreement with you, there is only one Supreme self existent God as the Bible is very clear in stating. Our God is an uncreated being.

Why does only one God exists in the first place? The Bible doesn’t directly tell us the reason that God exists, but it does say that God is infinite, eternal and "sovereign" . With this as our starting point, I think we can make sense of the fact that there is only one God.
For one thing, since God is the uncreated Creator, then he must exist necessarily. That is, he cannot fail to exist, and he always has. But other gods do not have to exist, and so they don't!
Also, it seems to me that it is incoherent to have multiple supreme beings. God is supreme and sovereign over all things, but if there was another being equal to him, neither would have total control over the other. Neither would truly be supreme, and so neither would truly be God.
The Greek pantheon, which consisted of a hierarchy of gods. But the Greek gods were finite and flawed, not supreme and self-existent like the biblical God. Such lesser “gods” could only have existed if God had decided to create them, and he did not.
The evidence really supports the idea of one supreme Creator God who is outside of (transcends) the universe and brought it into being (unlike the Greek gods).

This is just another reason why Mormonism and Christianity are light years apart.
_maklelan
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Re: The Question: Are Mormons Christian? A New Approach

Post by _maklelan »

Jason15 wrote:Sr1030 , Christians are in agreement with you, there is only one Supreme self existent God as the Bible is very clear in stating. Our God is an uncreated being.


The Bible nowhere has anything at all to say about self-existence, and if you wish to continue to assert this, I'll thank you to actually address my point, and with something more than "Yu-huh!"

Jason15 wrote:Why does only one God exists in the first place? The Bible doesn’t directly tell us the reason that God exists, but it does say that God is infinite, eternal and "sovereign" . With this as our starting point, I think we can make sense of the fact that there is only one God. For one thing, since God is the uncreated Creator, then he must exist necessarily.


But "uncreated" is not biblical. This is a philosophical proposition dating to centuries later. Not only that, but the notion that he must necessarily exist is not self-evident from the preceding proposition. You're just making assertions.

Jason15 wrote:That is, he cannot fail to exist, and he always has. But other gods do not have to exist, and so they don't!


A ludicrous false inference. Mosquitoes don't have to exist, but they do. The Raiders don't have to exist, but they do. Onions don't have to exist, but they do.

Jason15 wrote:Also, it seems to me that it is incoherent to have multiple supreme beings.


But "supreme being" is not coterminous with "god," neither by a biblical nor a contemporary definition of the word. "Supreme being" is a characteristic attributed to philosophical notions of deity (see Xenophanes), not a defining characteristic of gods as described or defined by the Bible.

Jason15 wrote:God is supreme and sovereign over all things, but if there was another being equal to him, neither would have total control over the other. Neither would truly be supreme, and so neither would truly be God.


Again you ignore the Bible's use of the word "god" and just assert your own definition, which is clearly drawn from Platonism as it has been handed down to you by conservative Christianity.

Jason15 wrote:The Greek pantheon, which consisted of a hierarchy of gods. But the Greek gods were finite and flawed, not supreme and self-existent like the biblical God.


I've already pointed out that the Bible shows God's limits on numerous occasions, and we've also been over the fact that the Bible nowhere witnesses to any notion of self-existence. You'll have to actually address these problems with your argument before including them in your premises from now on.

Jason15 wrote:Such lesser “gods” could only have existed if God had decided to create them, and he did not.


Where does it say he did not?

Jason15 wrote:The evidence really supports the idea of one supreme Creator God who is outside of (transcends) the universe and brought it into being (unlike the Greek gods).

This is just another reason why Mormonism and Christianity are light years apart.


This fundamental criterion of yours doesn't even distinguish Christianity from Judaism or Islam. You're basically saying that Judaism and Islam have more to do with your brand of Christianity than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is the only one that actually shares with you a belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of humanity, the only criterion established anywhere in the Bible for identification as a follower of Christ. Your zeal to boot Mormonism out of Christianity has completely perverted your presentation of the religion. You've abandoned the only definition of Christianity the Bible advocates. You're basically saying it's more important to exclude Mormonism than Judaism or Islam. What petty sectarian nonsense. And you'll defend it, too, while you stubbornly refuse to engage any of my quite legitimate and serious concerns with your argument. It simply staggers the imagination.
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_madeleine
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Re: The Question: Are Mormons Christian? A Biblical Approach

Post by _madeleine »

maklelan wrote:
madeleine wrote:I didn't ask for another meaningless assertion.

Yes your use of the Bible is all for the purpose of endless and meaningless assertions.

Feel better?


So if my interpretation is wrong, what did the author of 1 Corinthians really mean?


1 Cor 10:20 quoting Deut 32:17

No interpretation needed. It is perfectly clear.

"No, I mean that what they sacrifice, [they sacrifice] to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to become participants with demons."

The note in the NAB says: "To demons: although Jews denied divinity to pagan gods, they often believed that there was some nondivine reality behind the idols, such as the dead, or angels, or demons. The explanation Paul offers in 1 Cor 10:20 is drawn from Dt 32:17: the power behind the idols, with which the pagans commune, consists of demonic powers hostile to God."


If you continue reading in Deut.

21 Since they have incited me with a “no-god,”
and provoked me with their empty idols,
I will incite them with a “no-people”;
with a foolish nation I will provoke them.
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_jordon3
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Re: The Question: Are Mormons Christian? A Biblical Approach

Post by _jordon3 »

Wow Maklelan your last posting just verifies why the internet is rife with sites saying that Mormonism is a cult. I dislike the work myself. Your biblical concept of God is so far removed from the Christian concept. As you put it in your overly dramatic statement "it staggers the imagination". Oh daddy Maklelan. The Bible is very clear there is only one Eternal God ----- it staggers the imagination why you can't see it. I guess that is what is called a veil.
_maklelan
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Re: The Question: Are Mormons Christian? A Biblical Approach

Post by _maklelan »

madeleine wrote:1 Cor 10:20 quoting Deut 32:17

No interpretation needed. It is perfectly clear.

"No, I mean that what they sacrifice, [they sacrifice] to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to become participants with demons."

The note in the NAB says: "To demons: although Jews denied divinity to pagan gods, they often believed that there was some nondivine reality behind the idols, such as the dead, or angels, or demons. The explanation Paul offers in 1 Cor 10:20 is drawn from Dt 32:17: the power behind the idols, with which the pagans commune, consists of demonic powers hostile to God."


And as Deut 32:17 makes clear, those demons were considered gods. The Hebrew elohim is in apposition to the word "demons." Further: Heb 2:7 translates the Hebrew elohim of Ps 8:5 with the Greek angelos. After an angel visits Manoah and his wife in Judges 13, Manoah comments that they will surely die, since they have seen elohim, or "a god." I could go on and on. Obviously angels were considered gods, irrespective of what your Bible's footnote pretends. Go ahead and make an appeal to authority, though.

madeleine wrote:If you continue reading in Deut.

21 Since they have incited me with a “no-god,”
and provoked me with their empty idols,
I will incite them with a “no-people”;
with a foolish nation I will provoke them.


So are you insisting that, since "no-god" must mean a non-existent and imaginary deity, then the nation of Assyria, which is the "no-people" that God incited, must also have been a non-existent and imaginary people. Odd that they managed to do so much damage to Israel without even existing.
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_maklelan
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Re: The Question: Are Mormons Christian? A Biblical Approach

Post by _maklelan »

Jason15 wrote:Wow Maklelan your last posting just verifies why the internet is rife with sites saying that Mormonism is a cult. I dislike the work myself. Your biblical concept of God is so far removed from the Christian concept. As you put it in your overly dramatic statement "it staggers the imagination". Oh daddy Maklelan. The Bible is very clear there is only one Eternal God ----- it staggers the imagination why you can't see it. I guess that is what is called a veil.


So you're response is "Nu-uh!" Your fundamentalism is showing again. My position is the academic consensus, and it has been that for longer than you or I has been alive. Not all the scholars who promote that position, Jewish or Christian, believing or non, are in a cult, as you suggest my academic position indicates.
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