The Question: Are Mormons Christian? A Biblical Approach

[_maklelan]

I would like to know what you think the purpose of these other gods you believe in, is.

I "believe in"? This has nothing to do with my religious beliefs. This is just scholarship.

St. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, the pagans. His message for them, of Christ crucified, being reconciled, was a message of the One True God, who desired their faith and fidelity.

What need does God have for these other gods? What does an empty idol have to do with the one true God?

The other gods were the gods of the nations in the ancient Near East. Deut 32:8-9 has God giving each one of his offspring a nation over which to rule, giving YHWH the nation of Israel. By the time of the New Testament, their purviews had been taken over by YHWH, but they were still acknowledged, but as lower-level gods with no cosmological responsibilities.

What does the cult of Caesar, popular at the time of Paul, have to do with Christ? Caesar, being a real person, viewed as divine, is this one of the many gods that you believe exist?

You continue to misunderstand my academic position for a religious belief. Kindly stop.

I am not seeing why or how God, the One True God, has anything to do with pagan gods. All righteousness is in God. Where does this leave room for the existence of other gods, at all

"Righteousness" is not coterminous with "god"?

As a side note, a Jewish acquaintance once told me that Gentiles can worship whatever God(s) they like, but a Jew is required to worship the one true God of Israel. She did not mean, at all, that she believed other Gods were real.

Modern Jews did not write the Old or New Testaments, did they?

It does not align to Jewish belief, at all.

So what? The Bible does not align with modern Christian beliefs about the Trinity at all. Why do you still accept the Trinity?

[_madeleine]

I don't know why you are acting the fool. Surely you know a passage or two of scripture must be understood in context.

Here is context for you.

Isaiah 44 9 All who fashion idols are nothing, and the things they delight in do not profit. Their witnesses neither see nor know, that they may be put to shame. 10 Who fashions a god or casts an idol that is profitable for nothing? 11 Behold, all his companions shall be put to shame, and the craftsmen are only human. Let them all assemble, let them stand forth. They shall be terrified; they shall be put to shame together.

12 The ironsmith takes a cutting tool and works it over the coals. He fashions it with hammers and works it with his strong arm. He becomes hungry, and his strength fails; he drinks no water and is faint. 13 The carpenter stretches a line; he marks it out with a pencil. He shapes it with planes and marks it with a compass. He shapes it into the figure of a man, with the beauty of a man, to dwell in a house. 14 He cuts down cedars, or he chooses a cypress tree or an oak and lets it grow strong among the trees of the forest. He plants a cedar and the rain nourishes it. 15 Then it becomes fuel for a man. He takes a part of it and warms himself; he kindles a fire and bakes bread. Also he makes a god and worships it; he makes it an idol and falls down before it. 16 Half of it he burns in the fire. Over the half he eats meat; he roasts it and is satisfied. Also he warms himself and says, “Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire!” 17 And the rest of it he makes into a god, his idol, and falls down to it and worships it. He prays to it and says, “Deliver me, for you are my god!”

18 They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand. 19 No one considers, nor is there knowledge or discernment to say, “Half of it I burned in the fire; I also baked bread on its coals; I roasted meat and have eaten. And shall I make the rest of it an abomination? Shall I fall down before a block of wood?” 20 He feeds on ashes; a deluded heart has led him astray, and he cannot deliver himself or say, “Is there not a lie in my right hand?”

Psalms 115 2 Why should the nations say,
“Where is their God?”
3 Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases.
4 Their idols are silver and gold,
the work of human hands.
5 They have mouths, but do not speak;
eyes, but do not see.
6 They have ears, but do not hear;
noses, but do not smell.
7 They have hands, but do not feel;
feet, but do not walk;
and they do not make a sound in their throat.
8 Those who make them become like them;
so do all who trust in them.

Romans 1 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

[_madeleine]

I would like to know what you think the purpose of these other gods you believe in, is.

I "believe in"? This has nothing to do with my religious beliefs. This is just scholarship.

St. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, the pagans. His message for them, of Christ crucified, being reconciled, was a message of the One True God, who desired their faith and fidelity.

What need does God have for these other gods? What does an empty idol have to do with the one true God?

The other gods were the gods of the nations in the ancient Near East. Deut 32:8-9 has God giving each one of his offspring a nation over which to rule, giving YHWH the nation of Israel. By the time of the New Testament, their purviews had been taken over by YHWH, but they were still acknowledged, but as lower-level gods with no cosmological responsibilities.

What does the cult of Caesar, popular at the time of Paul, have to do with Christ? Caesar, being a real person, viewed as divine, is this one of the many gods that you believe exist?

You continue to misunderstand my academic position for a religious belief. Kindly stop.

I am not seeing why or how God, the One True God, has anything to do with pagan gods. All righteousness is in God. Where does this leave room for the existence of other gods, at all

"Righteousness" is not coterminous with "god"?

As a side note, a Jewish acquaintance once told me that Gentiles can worship whatever God(s) they like, but a Jew is required to worship the one true God of Israel. She did not mean, at all, that she believed other Gods were real.

Modern Jews did not write the Old or New Testaments, did they?

It does not align to Jewish belief, at all.

So what? The Bible does not align with modern Christian beliefs about the Trinity at all. Why do you still accept the Trinity?

You discount the obvious in order to support religious innovation. An awesome approach! No wonder I cannot take Mormon "scholars" seriously!

[_maklelan]

You discount the obvious in order to support religious innovation. An awesome approach! No wonder I cannot take Mormon "scholars" seriously!

Again, kindly stop mistaking my academic positions for religious belief. I know you're not going to stop arguing by assertion, but you can at least stop flagrantly misrepresenting me.

[_madeleine]

No, they are empty idols. I'm finding it difficult to believe you haven't read that the idols are nothing but wood and stone.

Yes, I've read that rhetoric many more times than you have, and in many more languages. I've also read other rhetoric found in the same books that acknowledges that there is a real entity represented by the idol, as is the case in Deut 32 and 1 Cor 10. I've already made this argument. You've not responded except to say "Nu-uh!" Please provide an argument if you don't like my reading.

I think you demonstrate well, the paganization of Christianity. I don't know that all Mormons believe as you, but you have my prayers.

Peace be with you.

Ps: I am not a Bible scholar. :) I do enjoy reading the Bible and of the Bible. New Testament Wright is a favorite, and I enjoy the Brazos commentaries. I wouldn't call these my opinions or dogmatic. In the end, you are not taking Christian scholarship seriously,

That's untrue. Every time I get up at a conference to present a paper or respond to one, I know I'm standing in front of mostly Evangelical Christians, and many of them are going to challenge me. I take the scholarship very seriously, but I also know its weaknesses, which is why I invite challenges. "Nu-uh!" is not a challenge, though.

and I cannot take Mormon scholarship seriously.

I'm not giving you Mormon scholarship, I'm giving you secular scholarship.

Not for dogmatic reasons, for logic reasons. Beginning with, the all-everything attributes of God cannot logically be shared by other gods and still be all-everything.

And yet you accept the hypostatic union, which has never been anything but a logical impossibility that is still accepted just because. You will appeal to logic when it serves you. When it doesn't, you will ignore it. That's still textbook dogmatism.

In other words, I think the Mormon argument for a plurality of gods is an argument falling down stairs.

Fine. What about the atheist, Christian, Jewish, and agnostic arguments in contemporary scholarship that consider the Bible and ancient Judaism thoroughly polytheistic? That is, after all, where I'm coming from. You keep trying to level the presumption that I'm just spewing Mormonism against my claims, when I'm doing no such thing. This is the academic consensus among scholars of all stripes, believing and non. It cannot be flippantly brushed aside by barking "Mormonism!"

Dear God, you are exasperating. AS I SAID, the early Hebrews were polytheistic. Deuteronomy contains both, and is considered the dividing point where Israel became strictly monotheist. At what point do you think "modern" Jews became monotheists? Let me guess, sometime during the conspiracy theory called the "great apostasy"?

It is you who are unable, or perhaps unwilling, to put Paul in context. He was evangelizing pagans, inviting them to come to the One True God. There is no indication he accepts pagan Gods, he taught against paganism, and was in the end killed for being a Christian who rejected the pagan gods.

[_madeleine]

You discount the obvious in order to support religious innovation. An awesome approach! No wonder I cannot take Mormon "scholars" seriously!

Again, kindly stop mistaking my academic positions for religious belief. I know you're not going to stop arguing by assertion, but you can at least stop flagrantly misrepresenting me.

Oh I see, I'm dogmatic, unable to express without belief, but you are such an unbiased scholar that we must worry about your reputation?


I'm sorry, but I have to bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

You're killing me.

[_sr1030]

Who was Christ talking to? You have degraded to an elementary discussion which I am not interested in with this question.

sr

The answer should be simple, sr1030. It is a valid question. Given a hypostatic entity in a given state, can it, at the same time, communicate with its other states?

Bump for sr1030.

Do I need to remind you of your second opening request?

Second, any attempt to discuss other topics as a means of distraction (i.e. Joseph Smith's beliefs, his use of the word 'translation', political issues relating to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The Book of Abraham, Polygamy and church history, temples, and etc.) will be ignored by me, and, I would hope by others here who are interested in genuine discussion about this single question.

are you going to respond to my previous post?

sr

[_jordon3]

Megacles can you show me a biblical verse that clearly states there is more than one true God? Please keep it in context of what is being presented by the author.

[_Megacles]

are you going to respond to my previous post?

I must have missed it, sr.

Megacles can you show me a biblical verse that clearly states there is more than one true God? Please keep it in context of what is being presented by the author.

Are you serious? They are all over the Bible. Maklelan and Madeleine have been discussing them for some time now. Have you been paying attention? Here are just a few examples:

God passes judgement on other gods: Exodus 12:12
God is described as "the God of gods": Psalm 136:2

And have you read Psalm 82?

1. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.


6. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

[_maklelan]

I don't know why you are acting the fool. Surely you know a passage or two of scripture must be understood in context.

I wish fundamentalists would bother to learn what context really means.

Here is context for you.

No, this isn't context. This is a tiny bit of literary context. Context extends so far beyond the dozen verses that surround a text. Context is the author's worldview; it's their intended audience; it's the genre of their work; their rhetorical message; the literature with which they interact. The problems they're trying to solve. Context is so much more than you appear to know.

Isaiah 44 9 All who fashion idols are nothing, and the things they delight in do not profit. Their witnesses neither see nor know, that they may be put to shame. 10 Who fashions a god or casts an idol that is profitable for nothing? 11 Behold, all his companions shall be put to shame, and the craftsmen are only human. Let them all assemble, let them stand forth. They shall be terrified; they shall be put to shame together.

12 The ironsmith takes a cutting tool and works it over the coals. He fashions it with hammers and works it with his strong arm. He becomes hungry, and his strength fails; he drinks no water and is faint. 13 The carpenter stretches a line; he marks it out with a pencil. He shapes it with planes and marks it with a compass. He shapes it into the figure of a man, with the beauty of a man, to dwell in a house. 14 He cuts down cedars, or he chooses a cypress tree or an oak and lets it grow strong among the trees of the forest. He plants a cedar and the rain nourishes it. 15 Then it becomes fuel for a man. He takes a part of it and warms himself; he kindles a fire and bakes bread. Also he makes a god and worships it; he makes it an idol and falls down before it. 16 Half of it he burns in the fire. Over the half he eats meat; he roasts it and is satisfied. Also he warms himself and says, “Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire!” 17 And the rest of it he makes into a god, his idol, and falls down to it and worships it. He prays to it and says, “Deliver me, for you are my god!”

18 They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand. 19 No one considers, nor is there knowledge or discernment to say, “Half of it I burned in the fire; I also baked bread on its coals; I roasted meat and have eaten. And shall I make the rest of it an abomination? Shall I fall down before a block of wood?” 20 He feeds on ashes; a deluded heart has led him astray, and he cannot deliver himself or say, “Is there not a lie in my right hand?”

So tell me, where and when was the author living, and what are they railing against in this segment of text? What is the cognate literature with which they are interacting? Please be specific. When you're done, I'll share some scholarship with you on the context of these very verses.

Psalms 115 2 Why should the nations say,
“Where is their God?”
3 Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases.
4 Their idols are silver and gold,
the work of human hands.
5 They have mouths, but do not speak;
eyes, but do not see.
6 They have ears, but do not hear;
noses, but do not smell.
7 They have hands, but do not feel;
feet, but do not walk;
and they do not make a sound in their throat.
8 Those who make them become like them;
so do all who trust in them.

Same questions.

Romans 1 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

Same questions.