LittleWorthen wrote: no it wouldn't matter to me. i've thought about this before. honestly, if it ever turned out to be all untrue, i'd still be a happy and proud member. honestly, even if God ended up not existing, i'd still be happy where i am. treating others with love and compassion and service and loving and honoring your wife/husband and being close to your family are all thing's i think people should aspire for even without religion. The Church just gives me additional motivation to strive to do better in these aspects.
And what if God or Jesus does exist? It sure sounds as if you have no real faith in these, but are satisfied just being a part of the group. Let's suppose this is not the correct path and that on judgement day you are sent to hell, can you say you would look back and say, "yep, I made the right choice?"
LittleWorthen wrote:That is why, no matter how hard you try to convince me otherwise, i am now, and always will be a proud member of this church despite the errors of men.
Little Worthen, I can say the same thing about being a proud member, but recognizing that "errors of men" part allows me to skip the fanaticism and cult of obedience stuff and focus more on the message of Jesus. That makes me appreciative of the Church and realize that the overall kindness of Church members outweighs any errors they may possess.
This reminds me of the story of Hansel and Gretel. Even though they escaped a harrowing experience, Hansel and Gretel took on an new appreciation of the excesses to which gingerbread addiction can lead. Throughout their adult lives, they were able to choose their cookies wisely.
LittleWorthen wrote: no it wouldn't matter to me. i've thought about this before. honestly, if it ever turned out to be all untrue, i'd still be a happy and proud member. honestly, even if God ended up not existing, i'd still be happy where i am. treating others with love and compassion and service and loving and honoring your wife/husband and being close to your family are all thing's i think people should aspire for even without religion. The Church just gives me additional motivation to strive to do better in these aspects.
Actually, LittleWorthen, I think that is great. You are happy with the comradery of the LDS Church and that is enough for you. The people in the LDS Church are very nice and helpful.
If doctrine is not the reason for your membership, however, the Sierra Club offers all those benefits without the cost of your time for callings and ten percent of your income.
he said it was a rhetorical question. i didn't say i didn't believe the doctrine is true, i said all that aside i'd still love the church because of the things i mentioned above. i do in fact believe in the doctrine taught by the church and that it is the restored church of Jesus Christ. but thank you for the offer.
Dr. Shades wrote:Just a little rhetorical question for you:
If Joseph Smith did not see anyone in the Sacred Grove, and if he did not translate characters from golden plates, would that matter to you?
LittleWorthen wrote:no it wouldn't matter to me. i've thought about this before. honestly, if it ever turned out to be all untrue, i'd still be a happy and proud member. honestly, even if God ended up not existing, i'd still be happy where i am. treating others with love and compassion and service and loving and honoring your wife/husband and being close to your family are all thing's i think people should aspire for even without religion. The Church just gives me additional motivation to strive to do better in these aspects.
Welcome. There are some of us here who also believe that the Church provides a stable environment with in which to live. I can find very little fault in how you describe the Church since I too share most of those opinions about Mormonism as a culture. Given that you do not care (or seem not to) about the historicity of Mormonism can you tell me if you pay a full tithing and obey the WoW? If so why?
i'm sorry, it seems i did a poor job explaining my beliefs. i do in fact believe in the doctrine of the church, and i know a lot about the history. i have a tendency to lean on the side of, yeah Joseph Smith probably screwed up, because he is a man after all. i also wonder how much of the "history" on Joseph Smith was factual since there were so many people against him and the church, a lot of it could have easily been falsified or exaggerated. the point of what i was saying was only to ask why people condemn a church so hard when the members are happy where they are and the overall lifestyle and examples of the church are good and christlike regardless of the history.
LittleWorthen wrote: no it wouldn't matter to me. i've thought about this before. honestly, if it ever turned out to be all untrue, i'd still be a happy and proud member. honestly, even if God ended up not existing, i'd still be happy where i am. treating others with love and compassion and service and loving and honoring your wife/husband and being close to your family are all thing's i think people should aspire for even without religion. The Church just gives me additional motivation to strive to do better in these aspects.
And what if God or Jesus does exist? It sure sounds as if you have no real faith in these, but are satisfied just being a part of the group. Let's suppose this is not the correct path and that on judgement day you are sent to hell, can you say you would look back and say, "yep, I made the right choice?"
he was asking a rhetorical question. i was just thinking outside of the box in my answer. i do have a lot of faith in God and the doctrine of this church. however to answer your question, i say that if it was wrong, then i still think on judgement day i will be fine. that's the point of what i was saying in the beginning. regardless of the history or doctrine, the church practices a righteous and christlike lifestyle. i think God would look at my actions and treatment of my family and fellow man, the thoughts and intents of my heart, and the dedication i showed to living the way i thought he would want and tell me i was good to go.
LittleWorthen wrote: i'm sorry, it seems i did a poor job explaining my beliefs. i do in fact believe in the doctrine of the church, and i know a lot about the history. i have a tendency to lean on the side of, yeah Joseph Smith probably screwed up, because he is a man after all. i also wonder how much of the "history" on Joseph Smith was factual since there were so many people against him and the church, a lot of it could have easily been falsified or exaggerated. the point of what i was saying was only to ask why people condemn a church so hard when the members are happy where they are and the overall lifestyle and examples of the church are good and christlike regardless of the history.
Most Scientologists I know are happy and lead an exemplary life style.
Perhaps you need to be clearer when you use the term Church.
By Church do you mean the members, do you mean the leadership or do you mean the historical history of the organization?
You will find many here who question the history of the Church and how the current leadership act. Most here do not see the people who are members as a problem group.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
there is a difference between being socially converted and spiritually converted
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
Little Worthen, did you have any church affiliation before you joined Mormonism? I think that most Christian churches offer the things you admire so much in the Mormon Church but few, if any, would subscribe to the idea you suggest above that even if what they believe is wrong that on judgement day "I will be fine". A major separation of those churches from Mormonism is the idea you appear to suggest that "being good to go" on judgement day is all dependent on you actions. You appear to be sincere in your support of Mormonism but I would hope that you have also made a sincere effort to compare the teachings of Mormonism with Biblical Christianity.
LittleWorthen wrote:he was asking a rhetorical question. i was just thinking outside of the box in my answer. i do have a lot of faith in God and the doctrine of this church. however to answer your question, i say that if it was wrong, then i still think on judgement day i will be fine. that's the point of what i was saying in the beginning. regardless of the history or doctrine, the church practices a righteous and christlike lifestyle. i think God would look at my actions and treatment of my family and fellow man, the thoughts and intents of my heart, and the dedication i showed to living the way i thought he would want and tell me i was good to go.
Perfect answer considering LDS members are now taught to doubt any doubts and to never doubt faith. If it makes you happy, then certainly God must approve.
LittleWorthen wrote:no it wouldn't matter to me. i've thought about this before. honestly, if it ever turned out to be all untrue, i'd still be a happy and proud member. honestly, even if God ended up not existing, i'd still be happy where i am. treating others with love and compassion and service and loving and honoring your wife/husband and being close to your family are all thing's i think people should aspire for even without religion. The Church just gives me additional motivation to strive to do better in these aspects.
How, specifically, does the Church do that?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)