The Concept of Death

[_Spanner]

The concept of proxy ordinances just never made sense to me. There is so much emphasis placed on the need for flesh to flesh contact to transmit priesthood power and the like - such that translated or resurrected beings were required to come back to pass on the priesthood and baptisms must be repeated if a part of the body escapes immersion. Then we are expected to believe the magic can be transmitted from the person doing the proxy baptism to the waiting spirit without contact.

Then hilariously, there is a spotter at the baptism to ensure every part of the proxy is submerged, so that the spirit in another dimension is baptized.

If proxy baptisms did actually work, then there is no reason that they cannot work for multiple people simultaneously.

This doctrine just can't survive analysis.

[_Bazooka]

Never could quite understand how the Mormon God can take care of the health needs of numerous people with one prayer but is unable, with one prayer, to baptize for the dead a whole slew of people on a list all at once with one symbolic standin.

It's all about us. Temple work benefits the patron first, the dead potentially second. If going "often as possible" to the temple does not benefit the patron s/he needs to go less often or not at all.

Actually, it benefits the finances of the Church first, patrons second (although it is unclear how) and the deceased a distant last.

[_Gunnar]

The concept of proxy ordinances just never made sense to me. There is so much emphasis placed on the need for flesh to flesh contact to transmit priesthood power and the like - such that translated or resurrected beings were required to come back to pass on the priesthood and baptisms must be repeated if a part of the body escapes immersion. Then we are expected to believe the magic can be transmitted from the person doing the proxy baptism to the waiting spirit without contact.

Then hilariously, there is a spotter at the baptism to ensure every part of the proxy is submerged, so that the spirit in another dimension is baptized.

If proxy baptisms did actually work, then there is no reason that they cannot work for multiple people simultaneously.

This doctrine just can't survive analysis.

I hear you! The more I think about that concept, the less sense it makes to me.

[Guest]

So then you agree that the vast majority of spirits, whose names cannot be known due to lack of earthy records are condemned to wait until the millennium for their work to be done? What a great system God came up with.

Temple work is merely "busy work" that need not be done at all. Certainly those so engaged could reap the same benefits by doing charity work for the living, rather than proxy work for a very select group of the dead who may or may not even be able to accept such work.

I actually agree with most of this and could have written it myself.

The one exception is how you assert that it is only a select group who "may be able to accept" saving ordinances. Mormonism is better than many/most denominations of Christianity in asserting that every soul can be saved, it's not their inability, it's their lack of desire to change. It really is, in Mormonism, an equal chance at exaltation, with every soul coming to that moment of decision with a clear understanding that they are making a final choice to either be celestial or something less. So it isn't as if temple work is done fecklessly for those not possessing the capacity to change for the best, they simply don't want to be that way for whatever complex of reasons.

Joseph Smith's GtF is not an Infinite Being, no matter how insistent he is on that point. The whole cosmology reeks of limited Judeo-Christian dogma, which is only removed from paganism by being monotheistic, and here Mormonism has simply added back into the mix polytheism with new faces, OURS. There is no questioning about what Existence even Is, it just "has always existed and is not created nor can be", but it is asserted to be the entire world/universe, somehow rising out of the uncreated soup to come up with a GtF, who then moves to come up with us as unique individual spirits out of our uncreated "intelligences". Joseph Smith's GtF does not KNOW why existence is, he just asserts that his intelligence is greater than all other intelligences without having any capacity to actually know the truth of that assertion: how could he? he is only part of the uncreated matter that includes his own intelligence, there could be countless other intelligences greater than his own intelligence, he just hasn't ever seen them, so assumes (that word again) that he must be the only one in this world that he has made. Polytheism, only with all the names removed. Then Joseph Smith finally sees the weakness in what he's been putting together and comes up with a "stack" of gods "all the way down", by making GtF simply "the only God with which we have to do", confusing the heck out of BY and gifting Mormonism with one of the most limited theologies every imagined while asserting that it is the grandest most infinite and liberating and intimate theology ever conceived, in fact NOT conceived, but rather revealed by GtF himself. How self-serving is that? If it is literally true, I have moved beyond GtF worship and am worshiping the "God" that GtF must worship if he's not a megalomaniac.

You do know that today's concept of the purpose of temple work does not resemble the 19th century version.

Today it's families are forever while back then it was a Celestial fantasy kingdom building. Back then it was a pure power grab, with Elders trying to seal as many people to themselves as possible, without regard to bloodlines, to increase their power and dominion in the hereafter. Nowadays it is merely a exercise in seeing how many members of your own family that get to endure eternal family home evenings together.

I see that we're on the same page conceptually, but possibly not pathematically. It wasn't a big leap to emphasize biological family ties over "dynastic" sealings. If it had been, the church would have fragmented along temple sealing lines instead of losing tiny pieces-parts of itself to the FLDS sects....

[_subgenius]

Never could quite understand how the Mormon God can take care of the health needs of numerous people with one prayer but is unable, with one prayer, to baptize for the dead a whole slew of people on a list all at once with one symbolic standin.

Matthew 18:18

[_oneprfct]

The fact that you rather be punished than forgiven illustrates the existence of your unconscious guilt. The nature of guilt is self-hatred. The more of God's love you experience in the "afterlife" the more guilty you will feel. The psychological pain will become so acute that one seeks to hide from it in another body. Jesus did not agree with the Garden of Eden metaphor which is why he created the story of the prodigal son (Luke 15). You will notice that at the end of the story it is the son who thinks he is guilty not the father. The son thinks he sinned against heaven and that he is not worthy to be called his father's son. But instead condemning the son the father embraces him because his love for his son never changed. The son thought he had squandered his father's treasure but found out that he was his father's treasure. The ideas of sin and guilt are self imposed and did not originate with God who is Eternal Love. Our mind created this entire false universe because it did not believe it was worthy of heaven and perfect oneness with God. Our ego does not exist in perfect oneness and as long as we identify with our ego we will feel that we are inherently incapable of heaven and perfect oneness with God which is heaven.

The Mormon description of the after life does not match the description of millions who have died and returned to tell their tells. When a person dies he or she has the false experience of the mind separating from the body. As a mind without a body there are no limits to what the mind can experience so people experience what they expect at first. Mormons will see a Mormon "afterlife" and Hindus will see a Hindu "afterlife". Since the current world and the world we see are creations of the mind, we see what we expect to see which is consistent with the NDE's described b y millions all over the world. Unlike this world where the mind has tried to hide from itself, the results of our thinking are immediate. If one thinks about being on the moon, he will instantly find himself there. There is also no limit to where one seemingly separate mind ends and the other begins. You will have the ability to experience being other people and things in your surroundings. People who have had a review of their life described the experience of being everyone who was affected by their choices in their life review. The more one's awareness expands, the more they fear the loss of individuality. The more love one experiences the more guilt and unworthiness one experiences. The psychological pain will cause one to eventually want to limit his awareness and experience of love by seemingly reincarnating. Unless one heals the guilt in the unconscious mind, the mind will be unable to accept a permanent return to eternal peace, joy, and love believing it does not deserve it. This guilt is manifested in the accounts of those who died and are told that they must return to learn more lessons or help others. It does not matter if they feel they must come back or they are told they can't stay. The guilty mind will eventually create a situation in which you cannot stay in eternal bliss. Healing the unconscious mind is a gradual process because undoing fear is a gradual process. he mind must contemplate an idea 12 times before it even begins to accept an idea as true. Since everything happens instantly in the "afterlife", there is no opportunity to heal unconscious guilt and fear of God there. The passage about the sin against the Holy Ghost was a misquote of something Jesus's actually said. The correct quote is found in the Gospel of Thomas discovered in Egypt in 1945. Jesus said look to the Living One while you live because when you die you will seek him and not find him. Jesus meant that the mind can only be healed in this life and not the "afterlife". This life is the time to prepare to meet God by healing your mind of all guilt and fear. The Holy Spirit will tell you how to use whatever spiritual path you believe in to gradually heal your mind of guilt and fear of God. Alma chapter 32 describes this gradual process. Your feelings tell you what is in your unconscious mind. As your mind begins to accept the idea you are forgiven, you will feel the swelling motions in your breast. As your mind accepts more and more the idea you are forgiven, the feelings will become more and more intense until it is so intense you will believe nothing doubting and your mind will create the vision of yourself being redeemed and returning to the experience of heaven.












































































Jesus

[_subgenius]

You've reinforced the point.
Jesus (one person) could perform an ordinance for and in behalf of everyone who has ever or will ever live.

and what was the "ordinance" He performed ?....
the ordinance of Baptism was not for all of us....so which "ordinance" are you speaking of?

So one individual doing a symbolic set of temple ordinances for and in behalf of multiple people who are dead is well proven.
Good point, well made. (Shame is wasn't deliberate).

Yes, one person has no doubt completed multiple ordinances for multiple persons...i am sure many Temple visitors can affirm that reality.
seems like the point being reinforced is planted firmly between your ears.

[_Bazooka]

You've reinforced the point.
Jesus (one person) could perform an ordinance for and in behalf of everyone who has ever or will ever live.

and what was the "ordinance" He performed ?....
the ordinance of Baptism was not for all of us....so which "ordinance" are you speaking of?

So one individual doing a symbolic set of temple ordinances for and in behalf of multiple people who are dead is well proven.
Good point, well made. (Shame is wasn't deliberate).

Yes, one person has no doubt completed multiple ordinances for multiple persons...i am sure many Temple visitors can affirm that reality.
seems like the point being reinforced is planted firmly between your ears.

As Elder Holland explained (in his interview with the BBC), baptisms for the dead are merely offers of Church membership extended to those individuals who have died without being Mormons, which they can choose to accept or not. Likewise Christs' 'atonement' (as far as Mormonism's concerned) is an invitation for all to come unto Christ and be saved, which we all can choose to accept or not. Christ did one atonement to cover a finite or infinite number of souls (depending on your view) and so set a precedent that one single symbolic act can be done on behalf of multiple souls.

There is no doctrine in the Church that precludes a single baptism done in the temple legitimately counting as an invitation to multiple people beyond the veil.
Of course, the biggest issue at the moment is not that there are insufficient posthumous baptisms, but that there are insufficient names of people behind the veil for whom baptisms can be done. For instance, at a recent Youth Baptism session there were insufficient names to fill the time allocated for the number of youth that were present to do baptisms. When the patrons were asked to provide more names because there was still an hour or more left of baptising time and no names to be done, they replied that names had to be rationed out otherwise some Youth groups would turn up and find they had no names to be done. The patron advised us to get the youth changed and take them to MacDonalds' as the canteen was closed.

I digress.

As I have pointed out, if the purpose of temple work was to ensure all dead people get offered the choice, the current methodology used in the temple does not get that job done. My method (one baptism every 12 months for and in behalf of 'everyone' who is dead) ensures that nobody, even those undocumented individuals for whom records do not exist, gets the offer. That's what is of paramount importance with temple work, right?

[_subgenius]

just to be sure...are you claiming that the atonement/crucifixion is an ordinance?

[_Bazooka]

just to be sure...are you claiming that the atonement/crucifixion is an ordinance?

Keep reading my post until you're sure.