Bazooka wrote:Human nature seems to inherently hold the prime directive as 'survival'. In that it is built into ones genes that first and foremost one takes care of ones self and then ones own. When one has children the prime directive seems (at least as my own feelings go) to shift to 'survival of the children' first and of ones self takes second place. If the claims of Christ's teachings in the New Testament are accurate, then He seemed to be advocating the prime directive as 'love thy neighbour as thy self' or, as I define that, collectively ensuring ones community is looked out for in terms of the basic necessities of life.
The prime directive that the Church seems to promote, is one of recruitment. The be all and end all of current Mormonism is that members need to do all they can to get people into the waters of baptism. Christian charity of the likes that Christ promoted, are in at least second place as far as the current Church is concerned. Ward and Stake mission plans, General Conference themes etc are all aimed at 'hastening the work' which in normal speak, is 'get more members recruited and get lapsed members back into the pews'. It is not aimed at encouraging members to help out more with the homeless, the needy, the impoverished etc with no ulterior motive other than 'loving they neighbour'. Everything the current Church teaches, promotes, encourages, exhorts etc has the prime directive of recruitment.
I think there is a lot of validity to that criticism, but what if part of the motivation for recruiting new members and reactivating lapsed members is to increase the number of people who are actively working help the homeless, the needy, the impoverished etc.? Is there anything intrinsically wrong with that?
No. However, I think you will be hard pressed to find supporting evidence to show that is why Mormonism seeks new recruits with the drive of door to door hoover salesmen.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
Gunnar wrote:I think there is a lot of validity to that criticism, but what if part of the motivation for recruiting new members and reactivating lapsed members is to increase the number of people who are actively working help the homeless, the needy, the impoverished etc.? Is there anything intrinsically wrong with that?
No. However, I think you will be hard pressed to find supporting evidence to show that is why Mormonism seeks new recruits with the drive of door to door hoover salesmen.
No? why?, because it does not serve well as sauce to your cynicism? In fact, given the evidence there is more support for what Gunnar has stated than what you are trying to pass. ...two sizes to small is your dilemma
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
subgenius wrote:In fact, given the evidence there is more support for what Gunnar has stated than what you are trying to pass.
Thanks for defending me, subgenius! I do agree that there is evidential support for what I stated. I know a lot of compassionate Mormons, as, I am sure, does Bazooka. He didn't entirely dismiss what I said, just as I didn't deny that there was a lot of validity to his criticism. He and I are probably in closer agreement with each other on this than you might think we are.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
subgenius wrote:In fact, given the evidence there is more support for what Gunnar has stated than what you are trying to pass.
Thanks for defending me, subgenius! I do agree that there is evidential support for what I stated. I know a lot of compassionate Mormons, as, I am sure, does Bazooka. He didn't entirely dismiss what I said, just as I didn't deny that there was a lot of validity to his criticism. He and I are probably in closer agreement with each other on this than you might think we are.
We do, for the most part, appear aligned on most aspects of the things we discuss. But it's okay when we aren't because we get to discuss those things!
My sentiments about this are that yes, I do know a lot of good Mormons. I also know a lot of good non Mormons. But we aren't talking about the individuals, we are talking about the organisations recruitment policy/programme and the sentiments behind it. When the missionary programme is 100% humanitarian and service based, then I think the organisation will be living up to your statement. Until then, the organisation recruits people for reasons other than trying to recruit people to a humanitarian or community service construct.
I refer you to the Preach My Gospel manual.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
subgenius wrote:In fact, given the evidence there is more support for what Gunnar has stated than what you are trying to pass.
Thanks for defending me, subgenius! I do agree that there is evidential support for what I stated. I know a lot of compassionate Mormons, as, I am sure, does Bazooka. He didn't entirely dismiss what I said, just as I didn't deny that there was a lot of validity to his criticism. He and I are probably in closer agreement with each other on this than you might think we are.
i am quite aware of both of your opinions being closely aligned...its cute. Nevertheless, he characterized your proposal as being "hard pressed" to find support...yet, the opposite is true. It is easier to find evidence for your proposal than for his...in fact, evidence for his position is lacking without one dose of imagination and another dose of conspiracy.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
Bazooka wrote:...Until then, the organisation recruits people for reasons other than trying to recruit people to a humanitarian or community service construct.
I refer you to the Preach My Gospel manual.
what a load...please, list these "other" reasons...because it seems that all roads lead to "recruiting" people to lead a Christ centered life, and that guy was pretty humanitarian.
For example...the 1st Presidency message in PMG is pretty clear about it...and even more so with chapter 1 - titled "What is my purpose as a missionary?" which is answered with: "Invite others to come unto Christ..."
So, for Bazooka - Coming unto Christ is NOT a humanitarian/community service act....got it!
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
Bazooka wrote:We do, for the most part, appear aligned on most aspects of the things we discuss. But it's okay when we aren't because we get to discuss those things!
That's a huge part of the appeal of this forum for me as well. Interacting with people like you give me both gives me new and improved insights and help me to better articulate my own views. I thank you for that!
My sentiments about this are that yes, I do know a lot of good Mormons. I also know a lot of good non Mormons. But we aren't talking about the individuals, we are talking about the organisations recruitment policy/programme and the sentiments behind it. When the missionary programme is 100% humanitarian and service based, then I think the organisation will be living up to your statement. Until then, the organisation recruits people for reasons other than trying to recruit people to a humanitarian or community service construct.
Good points. My statement was more about the individual members motivations for recruitment than about the organization's sentiments behind their "recruitment policy/programme", which is what you were mainly referring to. Nevertheless, I don't think that even the top leaders and policy makers of the Church are entirely devoid of any commitment to help the homeless and impoverished, though I agree with you that that is not likely their primary motivation for their zeal to recruit. Besides, there are some service missionaries sent out by the Church. I wish there were more emphasis on that kind of missionary work.
In connection with that, my son came home early from his mission to a Central American country in large part because he was so discouraged by the (to him) highly unfavorable comparison between what he was doing down there, and the humanitarian and service work accomplished by U.S. Peace Corp volunteers he encountered during his mission. He would much rather have been doing what they were doing than proselyting for the LDS Church. I was so proud of him for feeling that way!
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
subgenius wrote:For example...the 1st Presidency message in PMG is pretty clear about it...and even more so with chapter 1 - titled "What is my purpose as a missionary?" which is answered with: "Invite others to come unto Christ..."
So, for Bazooka - Coming unto Christ is NOT a humanitarian/community service act....got it!
First Presidency Message Preach My Gospel: A Guide to Missionary Service, (2004), v
Dear Fellow Missionary:
We compliment you on the great opportunity you have to be a missionary. There is no more compelling work than this, nor any which brings greater satisfaction.
Preach My Gospel is intended to help you be a better-prepared, more spiritually mature missionary and a more persuasive teacher. We urge you to use it daily in your personal and companion preparation, and in your district meetings and zone conferences. Study the referenced scriptures and learn the doctrines and principles.
We challenge you to rise to a new sense of commitment to assist our Father in Heaven in His glorious work. Every missionary has an important role in helping “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).
The Lord will reward and richly bless you as you humbly and prayerfully serve Him. More happiness awaits you than you have ever experienced as you labor among His children.
The 'this' being referred to is proselyting to recruit new members to a specific religious sect, Mormonism. From memory (and I could be wrong) didn't Christ preach humanitarian service over recruitment to a specific denomination as what He felt was most important? For instance: In the parable of the Good Samaritan was Jesus articulating proselyting? Or was it a message of helping needy others in a practical and meaningful way regardless of denomination and without the agenda of recruitment?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
subgenius wrote:For example...the 1st Presidency message in PMG is pretty clear about it...and even more so with chapter 1 - titled "What is my purpose as a missionary?" which is answered with: "Invite others to come unto Christ..."
So, for Bazooka - Coming unto Christ is NOT a humanitarian/community service act....got it!
First Presidency Message Preach My Gospel: A Guide to Missionary Service, (2004), v
Dear Fellow Missionary:
We compliment you on the great opportunity you have to be a missionary. There is no more compelling work than this, nor any which brings greater satisfaction.
Preach My Gospel is intended to help you be a better-prepared, more spiritually mature missionary and a more persuasive teacher. We urge you to use it daily in your personal and companion preparation, and in your district meetings and zone conferences. Study the referenced scriptures and learn the doctrines and principles.
We challenge you to rise to a new sense of commitment to assist our Father in Heaven in His glorious work. Every missionary has an important role in helping “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).
The Lord will reward and richly bless you as you humbly and prayerfully serve Him. More happiness awaits you than you have ever experienced as you labor among His children.
The 'this' being referred to is proselyting to recruit new members to a specific religious sect, Mormonism. From memory (and I could be wrong) didn't Christ preach humanitarian service over recruitment to a specific denomination as what He felt was most important? For instance: In the parable of the Good Samaritan was Jesus articulating proselyting? Or was it a message of helping needy others in a practical and meaningful way regardless of denomination and without the agenda of recruitment?
what a vivid imagination, and blurry intellect, you must have. Your reference: "We compliment you on the great opportunity you have to be a missionary. There is no more compelling work than this, nor any which brings greater satisfaction." THIS refers to being a missionary...which then is defined, by the summoned-by-you Preach My Gospel Manual - "What is my purpose as a missionary?" which is answered with: "Invite others to come unto Christ..."
the other things you mention are simply not mentioned and are not true...no matter how far you stretch. again one dose...and then another dose.
perhaps you should re-read your assertion about the PMG manual and then concede...for your concession now seems desperate.
Nevertheless, please go on and support your idea that the PMG manual counters its very own first chapter: "What is my purpose as a missionary?" which is answered with: "Invite others to come unto Christ..."
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
Invite others to come unto Christ = sell Mormonism to unsuspecting passers-by
I don't know how you define humanitarian aid, but selling religion isn't mine.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
I do agree that there is evidential support for what I stated. I know a lot of compassionate Mormons, as, I am sure, does Bazooka. He didn't entirely dismiss what I said, just as I didn't deny that there was a lot of validity to his criticism. He and I are probably in closer agreement with each other on this than you might think we are.