Prayer and Learning by the Spirit

[_Jay]

You lost me here. How does one's feeling of certainty show that is was from the HG?

Are you suggesting that someone who has an experience generated only by their body of an answer to coming into their mind will not be able to have no doubts about it?

Also, if we assume the HG exists and does give revelation to people, are you suggesting if the HG sends a message to a person they cannot doubt it or where they think the experience is coming from? Can we find examples of church leaders doubting some of the spiritual experiences they believe are from the HG?

Communication is always so difficult for me.

The feeling of certainty does not guarantee the source, but if you receive something from the Holy Ghost it will be accompanied with the feeling of certainty. But that is only one of the identifiers. There are many elements that make up the "signature" of the Holy Ghost. All of them will be present if and when you are given a message by the source of the Holy Ghost. If any of them are missing, then the only thing you can be sure of is that it is not from the Holy Ghost. This is where an experience generated by the body or some other outside source comes in. Granted those experiences can feel very significant, but that is all the more reason to being able to recognize the source. Without the certainty that comes with the Holy Ghost, we are confused and misled at best.

Like I said before, it is like recognizing the voice of your spouse. Tell me how that happens? How do you go from not knowing their voice at all to being able to recognize and sort it out even in a crowd of 100 people talking all at once? Most people wouldn't consider it important to recognize my wife's voice, but it is very important to me. Does it impact the importance of her voice in my life if 99.999% of the world's population doesn't recognize it? Not at all. Is it any less recognizable to me just because you don't recognize it?

Even when a message is delivered powerfly such as a physical appearance of an angel, a message can be doubted. Look at the experiences of the brothers of Nephi. Even with their physical experiences they were able to doubt and falter. God does not compel us to believe or even comply with his instruction.

How much easier is it for us to doubt when we receive instuction via a still small voice? I think that many times our lack of faith, our doubting, prevents us from being taught in this manner. In many ways, the experience of the Holy Ghost is reserved for only those who have prepared themselves to receive it. The rest of us have to learn by the school of hard knocks. That seems to be status of most in this world.

It is apparent that few people have prepared themselves sufficently to enjoy that priviledge. This is really a sad state of affairs that so many people with the benefits of the teachings of Joseph Smith have learned so little of what is really important. Joseph taught that without being able to recognize the Holy Ghost that we would never have power unto salvation. So where does that leave the vast majority of those that expect to be exalted?

[_ludwigm]

Like I said before, it is like recognizing the voice of your spouse. Tell me how that happens? How do you go from not knowing their voice at all to being able to recognize and sort it out even in a crowd of 100 people talking all at once? Most people wouldn't consider it important to recognize my wife's voice, but it is very important to me. Does it impact the importance of her voice in my life if 99.999% of the world's population doesn't recognize it? Not at all. Is it any less recognizable to me just because you don't recognize it?

Sometimes I don't want to recognize the voice of my spouse.
Most of the times I can only behave as if I didn't hear it...

and off.

[_Jay]

Sometimes I don't want to recognize the voice of my spouse.
Most of the times I can only behave as if I didn't hear it...

and off.

That might be something you don't want to advertise too blantantly.

[_ludwigm]

Sometimes I don't want to recognize the voice of my spouse.
Most of the times I can only behave as if I didn't hear it...

and off.

That might be something you don't want to advertise too blantantly.

And she is not eyeballing over my shoulder - at this moment.

[_Themis]

so....since entire populations disagree with the premise put forth in the DoI you now consider those premises to not be truths at all...got it!

I thought we were talking about self-evident. You could try and be honest, and not make up what I never said. You do realize the LDS church would consider what you did a sin. One thing I get from your posts here and on other threads is that you are not a thinker. Truth is in the proposition. Subjective truths are those propositions that are true only under certain conditions or true for some and not true for others.

and for the record...as usual...you are wrong...that is not at all what self-evident means....or implies.

You could stop provide what you think it means, but I know you are usually afraid to take a position in case someone questions you on it.

[_Themis]

The feeling of certainty does not guarantee the source

Would that not mean anyone, including you, who has no doubt about the source or message could be wrong about one or both?

if you receive something from the Holy Ghost it will be accompanied with the feeling of certainty.

Do you have any church sources on this? I ask because in the many talks I never got the idea that certainty had to come with the experience.

There are many elements that make up the "signature" of the Holy Ghost. All of them will be present if and when you are given a message by the source of the Holy Ghost.

What are these other elements you think must be present?

Like I said before, it is like recognizing the voice of your spouse. Tell me how that happens?

I get to see, hear, touch, smell, and taste my wife all the time. If she has a cold though I may not recognize her voice. Or if she tries to disguise it.

Joseph taught that without being able to recognize the Holy Ghost that we would never have power unto salvation.

I wonder what happened when Joseph claimed by the Holy Ghost they were to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon.

This is where an experience generated by the body or some other outside source comes in. Granted those experiences can feel very significant, but that is all the more reason to being able to recognize the source.

Here is an important question. Do you know what the limits of the body and environment are? If yes, how did you determine what those limits are?

Without the certainty that comes with the Holy Ghost, we are confused and misled at best.

You just said certainty is not a guarantee of the source. If that is true, then you cannot know for certain it is from the Holy Ghost.

[_Jay]

Without the certainty that comes with the Holy Ghost, we are confused and misled at best.

You just said certainty is not a guarantee of the source. If that is true, then you cannot know for certain it is from the Holy Ghost.

In programming terms E = A & B & C & D

A by itself does not determine the resultant E. All the terms A,B,C and D must be true before E is true. If any of the terms are false, E will then be false.

Certainty is just one of the terms of the equation.

[_Themis]

In programming terms E = A & B & C & D

A by itself does not determine the resultant E. All the terms A,B,C and D must be true before E is true. If any of the terms are false, E will then be false.

Certainty is just one of the terms of the equation.

I understand you think there are a number of things that need to be present. Can you provide what they are? By your admission certainty can exist without the Holy Ghost.

Also, I don't see where the church has taught certainty is part of the experience. That seems to come after, as a person feels certain about the source, the message, or both. In fact the church seems to suggest the experience can be hard to discern whether it is from the Holy Ghost or oneself. If so, then certainty is not coming from the Holy Ghost but the person having the experience thinks they know enough about it to be certain of the source and message.

If you don't mind, I am still wondering if you know what the limits of the body/environment are? If you think you do, how are you able to determine what they are?

[_Jay]

In programming terms E = A & B & C & D

A by itself does not determine the resultant E. All the terms A,B,C and D must be true before E is true. If any of the terms are false, E will then be false.

Certainty is just one of the terms of the equation.

I understand you think there are a number of things that need to be present. Can you provide what they are? By your admission certainty can exist without the Holy Ghost.

Also, I don't see where the church has taught certainty is part of the experience. That seems to come after, as a person feels certain about the source, the message, or both. In fact the church seems to suggest the experience can be hard to discern whether it is from the Holy Ghost or oneself. If so, then certainty is not coming from the Holy Ghost but the person having the experience thinks they know enough about it to be certain of the source and message.

If you don't mind, I am still wondering if you know what the limits of the body/environment are? If you think you do, how are you able to determine what they are?

Can you tell me what needs to be present for you to recognize your spouses voice? You mentioned that you experience her all the time, so this should be easy. If you can't detail a physical process such as that, how would you expect to detail the recognition of the Holy Spirt, which is beyond the physical.

Yes, certainty can exist without the Holy Ghost. Many people are certain of many things which have been proven to be wrong. For hundreds of years people were certain that the world was flat. It made no sense how it could be otherwise. But certainty did not make it true.

It is only hard to discern the Holy Ghost if you have not gone through the learning process. Sadly few within the Church bother with going through the process and as a result we see the lack of spiritual discernment within the Church today. Anytime a thing is unknown, we characterize it as difficult. Most think that it can't be a problem with what we are doing, so it must be a difficulty with the process.

The limits of the body are pretty well defined, at least physically. Granted that knowledge is being continuously refined as we better understand the processes involved. On the microscopic level, we don't even know much about the physical. The spirit is a whole different game, it is pretty much an unknown. The environment is an all inclusive term that encompasses the spirit, this world and ourselves. Since we don't understand the spirit itself, then our understanding of limits of the spiritual and the environment is also unknown.

[_Bazooka]

None of which addresses the point in my question.
In terms of "seeking out truth" by utilising the Holy Spirit, there are posters on here who have done so and been witnessed that the Church is true.
Likewise, there are posters on here who have done so and been witnessed that the Church is false.
In what discernible way is the feeling given by the Holy Spirit different to the feeling given by some other supernatural force, or by the feeling we can generate ourselves?

Anything Jay?
Any response at all to this?
It's a pretty valid question.