- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
Gunnar wrote:Though admittedly irrelevant, as you said, I think it is probable that even the original author of Job, whoever that was, did not intend that book to be taken as literal history. I think it more likely that it was intended as a sort of parable to illustrate theological points held by the author. I can't imagine God and Satan actually messing with a man's life that way merely to settle some kind of wager.
I think it's possible, but I don't know about probable. If we had some more stuff by that writer I think it would be easier to draw a conclusion, but you should see the soap operas going on in heaven that Greco-Roman period Jewish writers came up with.
Servant wrote:"It does no such thing" is not a scholarly refutation! It's a diversionary tactic.
Show me how the first verse "teaches the full deity of Christ." You got an assertion because you gave me an assertion. You want me to make a full case, give me a case to which I can respond.
And of course there's always this from the most perfect book ever written according to your cult:
"Mosiah 15 1-7:
God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people; and because he dwelleth in flesh, he shall be called the Son of God: and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son; the Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son: and they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of Heaven and of Earth; and thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father… the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father. (italics added)"
But in your case, I have to follow the admonition not to cast pearls, because you have consistently demonstrated that your a an Arian, as are most Mormons (although there are some who are actually Trinitarians because they have been "converted" to the cult without understanding its teachings).
I suggest when you study theology that you take some good courses in Church history as Arianism was one of the chief challengers of the early Christian churches and was roundly defeated -it has raised its ugly head through the centuries in various cultic systems - Unitarianism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, etc., but has never overcome the Church established by Jesus Christ and never will.
Maklelan has aparently never studied John 1:1 - since he says, "Show me how the first verse "teaches the full deity of Christ." What does he think it's teaching, semi-deity?
For those who are interested in that subject from the perspective of traditional Christinaity, here is a link:
God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people; and because he dwelleth in flesh, he shall be called the Son of God: and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son; the Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son: and they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of Heaven and of Earth; and thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father… the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father. "
But in your case, maklelan, I have to follow the admonition not to cast pearls, because you have consistently demonstrated that you are a an Arian, as are most Mormons (although there are some who are actually Trinitarians because they have been "converted" to the cult without understanding its teachings).
I suggest when you study theology that you take some good courses in Church history as Arianism was one of the chief heresies challenging the early Christian churches and was roundly defeated -it has raised its ugly head through the centuries in various cultic systems - Unitarianism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, etc., but has never overcome the Church established by Jesus Christ and never will.
Yeah, the first verse of Mark doesn't appear anywhere on there. Try again.
Servant wrote:And of course there's always this from the most perfect book ever written according to your cult:
"Mosiah 15 1-7:
God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people; and because he dwelleth in flesh, he shall be called the Son of God: and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son; the Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son: and they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of Heaven and of Earth; and thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father… the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father. (italics added)"
But in your case, I have to follow the admonition not to cast pearls, because you have consistently demonstrated that your a an Arian, as are most Mormons (although there are some who are actually Trinitarians because they have been "converted" to the cult without understanding its teachings).
I suggest when you study theology
Ha, ha!
Servant wrote:that you take some good courses in Church history as Arianism was one of the chief challengers of the early Christian churches and was roundly defeated -it has raised its ugly head through the centuries in various cultic systems - Unitarianism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, etc., but has never overcome the Church established by Jesus Christ and never will.
Good grief, you just refuse to pay any attention at all.
Servant wrote:Maklelan has aparently never studied John 1:1 - since he says, "Show me how the first verse "teaches the full deity of Christ." What does he think it's teaching, semi-deity?
This was your comment, Catherine:
By the way, the Gospel of Mark teaches the full deity of Jesus Christ, right in the first verse!
Now, we're talking about Mark, not John 1:1. If you want to talk about John 1:1, please see my post from eight years ago here. See here, as well, for a bit of background on my history with this verse and the Greek.
Servant wrote:For those who are interested in that subject from the perspective of traditional Christinaity, here is a link:
Yeah, I've been over each of these verses numerous times in the past.
Servant wrote:And of course there's always this from the most perfect book ever written according to your cult:
"Mosiah 15 1-7:
God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people; and because he dwelleth in flesh, he shall be called the Son of God: and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son; the Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son: and they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of Heaven and of Earth; and thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father… the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father. "
But in your case, maklelan, I have to follow the admonition not to cast pearls, because you have consistently demonstrated that you are a an Arian, as are most Mormons (although there are some who are actually Trinitarians because they have been "converted" to the cult without understanding its teachings).
I suggest when you study theology that you take some good courses in Church history as Arianism was one of the chief heresies challenging the early Christian churches and was roundly defeated -it has raised its ugly head through the centuries in various cultic systems - Unitarianism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, etc., but has never overcome the Church established by Jesus Christ and never will. [/b]
Servant wrote:Maklelan has aparently never studied John 1:1 - since he says, "Show me how the first verse "teaches the full deity of Christ." What does he think it's teaching, semi-deity?
This was your comment, Catherine:
By the way, the Gospel of Mark teaches the full deity of Jesus Christ, right in the first verse!
Now, we're talking about Mark, not John 1:1. If you want to talk about John 1:1, please see my post from eight years ago here. See here, as well, for a bit of background on my history with this verse and the Greek.
Servant wrote:For those who are interested in that subject from the perspective of traditional Christinaity, here is a link:
Yeah, I've been over each of these verses numerous times in the past.
Servant wrote:And of course there's always this from the most perfect book ever written according to your cult:
"Mosiah 15 1-7:
God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people; and because he dwelleth in flesh, he shall be called the Son of God: and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son; the Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son: and they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of Heaven and of Earth; and thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father… the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father. "
But in your case, maklelan, I have to follow the admonition not to cast pearls, because you have consistently demonstrated that you are a an Arian, as are most Mormons (although there are some who are actually Trinitarians because they have been "converted" to the cult without understanding its teachings).
I suggest when you study theology that you take some good courses in Church history as Arianism was one of the chief heresies challenging the early Christian churches and was roundly defeated -it has raised its ugly head through the centuries in various cultic systems - Unitarianism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, etc., but has never overcome the Church established by Jesus Christ and never will. [/b]
Why are you posting this twice?
The Bible and the Book of Mormon each teach the deity of Christ. As I said, study Church history. Your denials aren't worth any effort to refute. That's already been done.
In any case, I guess your Mormon cohorts agree with your previous words:
"So nobody has to go into apologetic mode to explain why Christ's prophecy that the eschaton would happen within one generation of his own lifetime wasn't fulfilled? Nobody needs to explain away his comments about not being worthy if they love their family more than the gospel? Nobody needs to explain away the idea that castrating yourself is admirable? Nobody needs to defend the notion that Christ rose from the dead? Nobody needs to defend the notion that the Bible is wholly and completely without error of any kind? Nobody needs to defend the virgin birth? These things don't need to be defended simply because Christ is the founder? That's not true at all. The only reason mainstream Christianity doesn't have to operate in "apologetic overdrive" is because these particular crazy things have been a conventionalized part of western culture for centuries.
Servant wrote:The Bible and the Book of Mormon each teach the deity of Christ. As I said, study Church history. Your denials aren't worth any effort to refute. That's already been done.
Ha, ha! You link to websites that don't even address your claims, and then when I show I've already dealt thoroughly with the claims of those websites you just declare victory. You're not even going to address the fact that you referred to Mark 1:1 and then starting barking about John 1:1. What a joke.
Servant wrote:In any case, I guess your Mormon cohorts agree with your previous words:
"So nobody has to go into apologetic mode to explain why Christ's prophecy that the eschaton would happen within one generation of his own lifetime wasn't fulfilled? Nobody needs to explain away his comments about not being worthy if they love their family more than the gospel? Nobody needs to explain away the idea that castrating yourself is admirable? Nobody needs to defend the notion that Christ rose from the dead? Nobody needs to defend the notion that the Bible is wholly and completely without error of any kind? Nobody needs to defend the virgin birth? These things don't need to be defended simply because Christ is the founder? That's not true at all. The only reason mainstream Christianity doesn't have to operate in "apologetic overdrive" is because these particular crazy things have been a conventionalized part of western culture for centuries.
Let the Mormons call Christ's resurrection "a "particular crazy" thing if they want - that is the result of following men and not God.
And here you rhetorically divert attention away from your fumbled attempt to build a case for your christology and your subsequent abandonment of that case by attempting to put me on the defensive against other Mormons. Brilliant.
Servant wrote:The Bible and the Book of Mormon each teach the deity of Christ. As I said, study Church history. Your denials aren't worth any effort to refute. That's already been done.
Ha, ha! You link to websites that don't even address your claims, and then when I show I've already dealt thoroughly with the claims of those websites you just declare victory. You're not even going to address the fact that you referred to Mark 1:1 and then starting barking about John 1:1. What a joke.
Servant wrote:In any case, I guess your Mormon cohorts agree with your previous words:
"So nobody has to go into apologetic mode to explain why Christ's prophecy that the eschaton would happen within one generation of his own lifetime wasn't fulfilled? Nobody needs to explain away his comments about not being worthy if they love their family more than the gospel? Nobody needs to explain away the idea that castrating yourself is admirable? Nobody needs to defend the notion that Christ rose from the dead? Nobody needs to defend the notion that the Bible is wholly and completely without error of any kind? Nobody needs to defend the virgin birth? These things don't need to be defended simply because Christ is the founder? That's not true at all. The only reason mainstream Christianity doesn't have to operate in "apologetic overdrive" is because these particular crazy things have been a conventionalized part of western culture for centuries.
Let the Mormons call Christ's resurrection "a "particular crazy" thing if they want - that is the result of following men and not God.
And here you rhetorically divert attention away from your fumbled attempt to build a case for your christology and your subsequent abandonment of that case by attempting to put me on the defensive against other Mormons. Brilliant.
Caught in your own words, aren't you mak? Your Christology is simply Arianism. Mine is the traditional view of the Christian Church backed up by 2,000 years of Biblical truth. John 1:1 should be enough for any normal person to understand that Christ is God, God the Word made flesh...........unless they have an Arian agenda.
The Deity of Jesus in Book of Mormon and the Bible
Mosiah 3:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.
3 Nephi 19: 18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.
Mosiah 5:15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.
An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.
Translated by Joseph Smith, Jun.
2 Nephi 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;
These quotes sure don't sound like the Jesus of Mormonism do they or makelen's
1. “To those who through the righteousness of Our God and Savior Jesus Christ,” 2 Peter 1:1 Emphatic Diaglott 2. “The glorious appearing of our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” Titus 2:13 Emphatic Diaglott 3.”Keep watch over yourself and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has you overseer. Be shepherds of the Church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Acts 20:23 New International V 4.”Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all forever praised amen” Romans 9:5 King James 5.”The life appeared, we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the Eternal Life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.” 1 John 1:2 King James and we are in him who is the true even in his son Jesus, He is the True God and Eternal Life,” 1 John 5:20 King James 6.”In the beginning, was the WORD, and the WORD was with GOD and the WORD was GOD Himself.” John 1:1 Amplified Version 7.”And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; GOD was manifested in the flesh.” 1 Timothy 3:16 King James 8.”and Thomas answered and said to him “ My LORD and my God,” Jesus said to him :Thomas because you have seen me you have believed,” John 20:28 King James 9.”for in him dwells all the fullness of the GODHEAD BODILY,” Colossians 2:9 King James “GODHEAD” {Greek-Theotetos}. In Thayers Greek page 288; The state of being God 10.”who although being essentially one with God and in the Form of God {possessing the fullness of the attributes which make GOD GOD} did not think this equality with God was a thing to be grasped or retained.” Philippians 2:6 Amplified version 11.”Nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents.” 1 Corinthians 10:9 King James 12.”No one has seen God {referring to the Father} BUT GOD the One and Only, who is at the Fathers side has made him known.” John 1:18 New International {Jehovah GOD was seen many times by the people, so in them cases it couldn’t be the Father, {had to be Jesus who was seen and called Jehovah.
“Moses and Aaron, Nahab and Abihu, and seventy of the Elders went up and saw God of Israel under his feet was something like pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky it self, but God did not raise his hand against these leaders of Israelites, they saw God, and they ate and drank,” Exodus 24:9-11
“at this point the men turned from there way to Sodom but as for JEHOVAH he was standing still before Abraham….then JEHOVAH went his way when he had finished speaking to Abraham.” Genesis 18:22-33 New World Translation Genesis 18:2 says three men appeared to Abraham, two are identified as angels {Genesis 19:1} ONE IS IDENTIFIED AS JEHOVAH GOD Genesis 18:1,3,13,14,17,20,22,26,27,31,32 and 33
Looks to me there's a preponderance of evidence that Jesus is the Almighty GOD, the GREAT I AM
John 8:24 That is why I told you that you will die in (under the curse of) your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He [Whom I claim to be—if you do not adhere to, trust in, and rely on Me], you will die in your sins.
1. Bread
“I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger.” John 6:35
2. Light
“I am the light of the world; he who fallows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.” John 8:12
3. Gate
“I am the gate; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.” John 10:9
4. Good Shepherd
“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for His sheep.” John 10:11
5. Resurrection and Life
“I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies.” John 11:25
6. Way, Truth, Life
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.” John 14:6
7. True vine
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.” John 15:1
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Justice = Getting what you deserve Mercy = Not getting what you deserve Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
