LittleNipper wrote:How many years is that exactly? When did a single celled organisms become a Starfish or Horseshoe Crab? The Bible is a failure according to you but not for me. And that is why I can call myself a Christian ---- because I have absolutes on my side. You have nothing but doubts and "educated" guesswork. Jesus died for me because the Bible tells me so. Without the Bible, I would not know that. And were it not for the Bible, YOU would not know that either.
You're confusing belief with knowledge, Nipper.
Romans 10:14
New International Version How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
New International Version How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
Are you trying to say it's possible to obtain empirical knowledge of the truthfulness of Christianity's supernatural claims by simply reading the Bible? Or by simply listening to someone preach about it?
I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that.
Surprise, surprise, there is no divine mandate for the Church to discuss and portray its history accurately. --Yahoo Bot
I pray thee, sir, forgive me for the mess. And whether I shot first, I'll not confess. --Han Solo, from William Shakespeare's Star Wars
New International Version How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
So how do you reconcile this with the notion that Rom 1:20 means everyone should have figured out there was a God by observing nature, and thus can be condemned to hell for not accepting him even if they've never heard of Jesus?
New International Version How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
So how do you reconcile this with the notion that Rom 1:20 means everyone should have figured out there was a God by observing nature, and thus can be condemned to hell for not accepting him even if they've never heard of Jesus?
Romans 1:21
New International Version For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
New International Version For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Instead of tossing out random Biblical versus, why not try answering the question?
Surprise, surprise, there is no divine mandate for the Church to discuss and portray its history accurately. --Yahoo Bot
I pray thee, sir, forgive me for the mess. And whether I shot first, I'll not confess. --Han Solo, from William Shakespeare's Star Wars
The response to that is always, "How do we know what is and isn't god's word, then?" and there is where I think the LDS prioritization of the guidance of the Spirit makes up a lot of ground. If the Bible is the one and only standard, it's all or nothing. If the Bible is a complement and supplement to the Spirit, it can be much more flexible. That's my view, for whatever it's worth.
So Daniel, how do you explain the Book of Mormon? Since Smith claimed that there was "no error" in the revelations that he taught, and that the Holy Ghost was his "right hand man", please tell us how the prophecies in Ezekiel and Isaiah foretell the Book of Mormon. Please make up that ground for us.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door; Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors. One focal point in a random world can change your direction: One step where events converge may alter your perception.
LittleNipper wrote:something written by unknown somebody (with quill)
Instead of tossing out random Biblical verses, why not try answering the question?
His brain is hardwired, unprogrammable.
Here is the core image: "biblebiblebiblebiblebible...repeated ...Bible" (all in all one bit in binary)
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
2 Kings 6:1-33 One day the group of prophets came to Elisha and told him, “As you can see, this place where we meet with you is too small. Let’s go to the Jordan River, where there are plenty of logs. There we can build a new place.”
When they arrived at the Jordan, they began cutting down trees. But as one of them was cutting a tree, his ax head fell into the river and It was a borrowed ax. “Where did it fall?” Elisha asked. Elisha cut a stick and threw it into the water at that spot. Then the ax head floated to the surface. “Grab it,” Elisha said. And the man reached out and grabbed it.
When the king of Aram was at war with Israel, he would confer with his officers and say, “We will mobilize our forces at such and such a place.” But immediately Elisha, the man of God, would warn the king of Israel, “Do not go near that place, for the Arameans are planning to mobilize their troops there.” So the king of Israel would send word to the place indicated by the man of God. Time and again Elisha warned the king, so that he would be on the alert there. The king of Aram became very upset over this. He called his officers together and demanded, “Which of you is the traitor? Who has been informing the king of Israel of my plans?” “It’s not us, my lord the king,” one of the officers replied. “Elisha, the prophet in Israel, tells the king of Israel even the words you speak in the privacy of your bedroom!”
“Go and find out where he is,” the king commanded, “so I can send troops to seize him.” And the report came back: “Elisha is at Dothan.” So one night the king of Aram sent a great army with many chariots and horses to surround the city. When the servant of the man of God got up early the next morning and went outside, there were troops, horses, and chariots everywhere. “Oh, sir, what will we do now?” the young man cried to Elisha.
“Don’t be afraid!” Elisha told him. “For there are more on our side than on theirs!” Then Elisha prayed, “O Lord, open his eyes and let him see!” The Lord opened the young man’s eyes, and when he looked up, he saw that the hillside around Elisha was filled with horses and chariots of fire. As the Aramean army advanced toward him, Elisha prayed, “Lord, please confound their sight.” This is what the Lord did.
Then Elisha went out and told them, “You have come the wrong way! This isn’t the right city! Follow me, and I will take you to the man you are looking for.” And he led them to the city of Samaria. As soon as they had entered Samaria, Elisha prayed, “O Lord, now open their eyes and let them see.” So the Lord opened their eyes, and they discovered that they were in the middle of Samaria.
When the king of Israel saw them, he shouted to Elisha, “My father, should I kill them? Should I kill them?” “Of course not!” Elisha replied. “Do we kill prisoners of war? Give them food and drink and send them home again to their master.” So the king made a great feast for them and then sent them home to their master. After that, the Aramean raiders stayed away from the land of Israel.
Later, however, King Ben-hadad of Aram gathered his entire army and attacked Samaria. As a result, there was a great famine in the city. The siege lasted so long that a donkey’s head sold for eighty pieces of silver, and a cup of dove’s dung sold for five pieces of silver. One day as the king of Israel was walking along the wall of the city, a woman called to him, “Please help me, my lord the king!”
He answered, “If the Lord doesn’t help you, what can I do? I have neither food from the threshing floor nor wine from the press to give you.” But then the king asked, “What is the matter?” She replied, “This woman said to me: ‘Come on, let’s eat your son today, then we will eat my son tomorrow.’ So we cooked my son and ate him. Then the next day I said to her, ‘Kill your son so we can eat him,’ but she has hidden her son.”
When the king heard this, he tore his clothes in despair. And as the king walked along the wall, the people could see that he was wearing burlap under his robe next to his skin. “May God strike me and even kill me if I don’t separate Elisha’s head from his shoulders this very day,” the king vowed. Elisha was sitting in his house with the elders of Israel when the king sent a messenger to summon him. But before the messenger arrived, Elisha said to the elders, “A murderer has sent a man to cut off my head. When he arrives, shut the door and keep him out. We will soon hear his master’s steps following him. While Elisha was still saying this, the messenger arrived. And the king said, “All this misery is from the Lord! Why should I wait for the Lord any longer?”
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And sons of the prophet say unto Elisha, `Lo, we pray thee, the place where we are dwelling before thee is too strait for us;
2 let us go, we pray thee, unto the Jordan, and we take thence each one beam, and we make for ourselves there a place to dwell there;' and he saith, `Go.'
3 And the one saith, `Be pleased, I pray thee, and go with thy servants;' and he saith, `I -- I go.'
4 And he goeth with them, and they come in to the Jordan, and cut down the trees,
5 and it cometh to pass, the one is felling the beam, and the iron hath fallen into the water, and he crieth and saith, `Alas! my lord, and it asked!'
6 And the man of God saith, `Whither hath it fallen?' and he sheweth him the place, and he cutteth a stick, and casteth thither, and causeth the iron to swim,
7 and saith, `Raise to thee;' and he putteth forth his hand and taketh it.
8 And the king of Aram hath been fighting against Israel, and taketh counsel with his servants, saying, `At such and such a place [is] my encamping.'
9 And the man of God sendeth unto the king of Israel, saying, `Take heed of passing by this place, for thither are the Aramaeans coming down;
10 and the king of Israel sendeth unto the place of which the man of God spake to him, and warned him, and he is preserved there not once nor twice.
11 And the heart of the king of Aram is tossed about concerning this thing, and he calleth unto his servants, and saith unto them, `Do ye not declare to me who of us [is] for the king of Israel?'
12 And one of his servants saith, `Nay, my lord, O king, for Elisha the prophet, who [is] in Israel, declareth to the king of Israel the words that thou speakest in the inner part of thy bed-chamber.'
13 And he saith, `Go ye and see where he [is], and I send and take him;' and it is declared to him, saying, `Lo -- in Dothan.'
14 And he sendeth thither horses and chariot, and a heavy force, and they come in by night, and go round against the city.
15 And the servant of the man of God riseth early, and goeth out, and lo, a force is surrounding the city, and horse and chariot, and his young man saith unto him, `Alas! my lord, how do we do?'
16 And he saith, `Fear not, for more [are] they who [are] with us than they who [are] with them.'
17 And Elisha prayeth, and saith, `Jehovah, open, I pray Thee, his eyes, and he doth see;' and Jehovah openeth the eyes of the young man, and he seeth, and lo, the hill is full of horses and chariots of fire, round about Elisha.
18 And they come down unto it, and Elisha prayeth unto Jehovah, and saith, `Smite, I pray Thee, this nation with blindness;' and He smiteth them with blindness, according to the word of Elisha.
19 And Elisha saith unto them, `This [is] not the way, nor [is] this the city; come after me, and I lead you unto the man whom ye seek;' and he leadeth them to Samaria.
20 And it cometh to pass, at their coming in to Samaria, that Elisha saith, `Jehovah, open the eyes of these, and they see;' and Jehovah openeth their eyes, and they see, and lo, in the midst of Samaria!
21 And the king of Israel saith unto Elisha, at his seeing them, `Do I smite -- do I smite -- my father?'
22 And he saith, `Thou dost not smite; those whom thou hast taken captive with thy sword and with thy bow art thou smiting? set bread and water before them, and they eat, and drink, and go unto their lord.'
23 And he prepareth for them great provision, and they eat and drink, and he sendeth them away, and they go unto their lord: and troops of Aram have not added any more to come in to the land of Israel.
24 And it cometh to pass afterwards, that Ben-Hadad king of Aram gathereth all his camp, and goeth up, and layeth siege to Samaria,
25 and there is a great famine in Samaria, and lo, they are laying siege to it, till the head of an ass is at eighty silverlings, and a forth of the cab of dovesdung at five silverlings.
26 And it cometh to pass, the king of Israel is passing by on the wall, and a woman hath cried unto him, saying, `Save, my lord, O king.'
27 And he saith, `Jehovah doth not save thee -- whence do I save thee? out of the threshing-floor, or out of the wine-vat?'
28 And the king saith to her, `What -- to thee?' and she saith, `This woman said unto me, Give thy son, and we eat him to-day, and my son we eat to-morrow;
29 and we boil my son and eat him, and I say unto her on the next day, Give thy son, and we eat him; and she hideth her son.'
30 And it cometh to pass, at the king's hearing the words of the woman, that he rendeth his garments, and he is passing by on the wall, and the people see, and lo, the sackcloth [is] on his flesh within.
31 And he saith, `Thus doth God do to me, and thus He doth add -- if it remain -- the head of Elisha son of Shaphat -- upon him this day.'
32 And Elisha is sitting in his house, and the elders are sitting with him, and [the king] sendeth a man from before him; before the messenger doth come unto him, even he himself said unto the elders, `Have ye seen that this son of the murderer hath sent to turn aside my head? see, at the coming in of the messenger, shut the door, and ye have held him fast at the door, is not the sound of the feet of his lord behind him?'
33 He is yet speaking with them, and lo, the messenger is coming down unto him, and he saith, `Lo, this [is] the evil from Jehovah: what -- do I wait for Jehovah any more?'