John Dehlin Stake President update 8/23/14

[_Molok]

The one who does not know to capitalize to start sentences...

Hey thanks for the grammar lesson, mister "masterbation."

[Guest]

using an imaginary threat of an imaginary excommunication as a means of gaining sympathy for oneself would make for an interesting summer.

So you view this potential excommunication as something [mormonstories] cooked up as a means of gaining sympathy?

Obviously you and [mormonstories] are not into shared realities, but the Church would have readily offered a correction for newspaper articles discussing the excommunication, is such an excommuncation was illusionary.

not to be bitchy grammar ass here, but i am not following you.

[_Stumpy Pepys]

Is this what the penguin meant?

JD claimed his membership/church standing was and is under discussion. He said this to the media. The church did not attempt to correct his story. Why not?

[Guest]

Is this what the penguin meant?

JD claimed his membership/church standing was and is under discussion. He said this to the media. The church did not attempt to correct his story. Why not?

if i recall correctly, the church did respond by saying it was a local matter.

======== the too long and not important part of my answer is below. tl;stop reading.

it is interesting to me how two parallel stories are told and compared by the media, the subjects, Mormons, exmormons and the sycophants. the two stories being kate kelly and [mormonstories].

soon after the kelly and [mormonstories] stories broke, rollo tomasi and others did a great breakdown of the process. if i recall correctly, rollo did some very thorough work on it.

the biggest criticisms seemed to be that the church was not following protocol. (leaving aside the immorality and misogyny debates.) with respect to the process, and the available version of the CHI, the men in virginia were acting a bitch, or like assholes if you read this board and others. kelly had a friend write a psueudo-legal response in her defense that was based on the CHI and the flunking process. kelly was ultimately exed. an appeal was submitted which is, i believe, based on that flunking process.

[mormonstories]'s stake president appears to have followed the chi by the book. now, i do not know if there are instructions for SP's on how to inquire about membership preferences from a dissident, but there have been no suggestions or evidence that he didn't follow a procedure. he told [mormonstories] if he didn't get a response on [mormonstories]'s desire to remain a member, he would convene a court. [mormonstories] responded immediately both through the media and also directly to king. from that point forward, there was never a court pending, threatened or convened. and the stake president did not, and could not were he to follow his instructions, excommunicate [mormonstories] without blatantly disregarding his CHI. king followed the rules, [mormonstories] was not exed.

for all the bitching and moaning about how the virginia men did not follow the rules, there should be some acknowledgment that king followed the rules and that [mormonstories] was not actually threatened with a court. excommunication, without a court, was never really on the table, right?

if there is no threat of excommunication, except in [mormonstories]'s media campaign, why would otterson oblige the rumors and hysteria among the sycophants? i don't really like that otterson cat, but he is a professional and he is a pr guy for a huge company. he knows what he is doing. asking him to feed the rumors and [mormonstories]'s campaign with formal responses is like asking him when he stopped beating his wife. not responding is not evidence that there was a real threat. it is just a pr strategy, and a sound one at that.

[_moksha]

... is if such an excommuncation was illusionary.

not to be bitchy grammar ass here, but i am not following you.

Sorry, I meant to use if.

Seems like the Church would have asked the Tribune to make a retraction if they disagreed with the recent articles about Mr. Dehlin's status.

[_Bazooka]

Sorry, I meant to use if.

Seems like the Church would have asked the Tribune to make a retraction if they disagreed with the recent articles about Mr. Dehlin's status.

Doesn't the Church now own, or have undue influence, on the Tribune?

[_Bazooka]

As to the situation with John Dehlin and his stake president--



Car, meet tree.

The tree seems to be standing to one side so that the car doesn't crash into it.

[_ZelphtheGreat]

Hardy was an is a publisher. BYU really has nothing to do with it.

[_Jesse Pinkman]

I think we agree he has said things contrary to Church doctrine (albeit he flip flops around a bit), right?



He may be more subtle than Kelly, but he is seeking to own and head an organisation (loose) of Mormons who will listen to what he has to say.

yeah. we agree on that. indeed.

i guess i just didn't or don't see heading a group of unorthodoxy within the church too much different than just being a Mormon. bishops, stake presidents and GA's want people to listen to what they have to say too. that expectation is not un-mormon at all, especially for a dude.

bushman said things that were contrary to church correlation too. he wants a following too. maybe king just sees dehlin as a publisher like bushman.

There are HUGE differences between Buschman and Dehlin. First of all, Buschman's book, "Rough Stone Rolling", STILL maintained that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. Not only that, but when Church critics started using quotes from his book for justifications in their arguments, he took multiple public stands regarding his support of Church doctrine. He also had absolutely no interest in organizing a following. He simply wrote and published one book.

If all Dehlin did was his Mormon Stories podcast, and outside of his show, conducted himself similarly to Buschman regarding his commitment to the faith, then I would agree with you. But, it is very clear that Dehlin's actions were VERY different.

In addition to running his podcast, he also founded what is now referred to as the NOM (New Order Mormon) movement, encouraging cafeteria Mormonism among struggling members. Now, considering that the Church ultimately gained from this, since it lost less tithing payers, it still began to promote nonconformity within the ranks.

Dehlin has also gone extremely public through speaking engagements, online presentations, and print media promoting his positions that Bazooka listed in his prior post. Kate Kelly organized ONE group, Ordain Women. Dehlin organized MULTIPLE groups on Facebook. The Mental Health group is the primary one he seems to be focused on at the moment, but the other groups are still active. Leadership has simply been delegated to local factions.

In addition to all of the above that I listed, Dehlin has been extremely publicly vocal about his stand on same sex marriage, which is clearly against Church doctrine.

By not formerly disciplining Dehlin in any way, whether the Church intends to or not, it is sending a message to members that women holding the priesthood is a much more weighty offense than homosexuality. Believe me, that is not going to sit well, even with the TBM chapel Mormons.

[Guest]

In addition to running his podcast, he also founded what is now referred to as the NOM (New Order Mormon) movement,

mormonstories did not found the New Order Mormon movement. He may want to give people the impression that he did, but he most certainly did not.
SAUCE

The term "New Order Mormon" was coined by the originator and author of much of the material on this web site and the founder of the NOM discussion board. Known online as LDSMan, his vision and hope for Latter-day Saints who found themselves disbelieving much of the doctrine of the church was that they could learn to live a "third way." The church's official "entirely true or entirely false" premise tends to generate ex-Mormons who view the church as an evil enterprise, and LDSMan strongly believed in another way of participation: "Take what you like and leave the rest."

The original LDSMan eventually turned over the LDSMan screen name to another, but the founder of the site remained a helpful, wise, and important participant in the NOM discussion board until his death in summer of 2004. His wife has written a short essay about him and his work on the NOM web site and discussion forum.

What does "New Order Mormon" mean?
New Order Mormon was suggested by the term New Order Amish. Within the large umbrella of the Amish faith there are a variety of groups with different approaches. An Old Order Amish community is very strict about traditional practices with regard to behavior, clothing, and modern technology. New Order Amish, on the other hand, have different standards and are more open to the use of modern inventions. Both groups hold to strong standards of personal behavior and family loyalty.

The original LDSMan concluded that borrowing the Amish terminology would be a helpful way to distinguish between traditional, orthodox Latter-day Saints and those of us who remain in the church even though we don't believe it is the only way to live in harmony with God's will. The term Old Order Mormon never caught on, and it is common to refer to these Mormons online as "TBMs" or True Believing Mormons. The term New Order Mormon, however, has found widespread use, typically using the acronym NOM pronounced as a single word.

Edited to change real name to "mormonstories."