Sherem?

[_subgenius]

What is fascinating about Tikal is that its story continues to change. Once thought to be the religious site and astronomical observatory of a peaceful tribe, archaeologists in the 1980s revealed that the Maya were actually a fierce and frequently warring people. In 2013, archaeologists discovered a significant frieze near Tikal that revealed the depth of the political struggle between Tikal and neighboring rulers of Kaanul, or the Snake Kingdom.
http://www.architectmagazine.com/histor ... ets_o.aspx




So, how do we resolve the presence and actions of Sherem in the Book of Mormon?

[_CameronMO]

Not sure I'm following you here, subgenius. This temple was build around 700 AD, while Sherem was around 545 BC, about 1245 years difference. Plus, Guatemala is in Central America, whereas Nephi and Jacob were somewhere around Palmyra, New York, USA. Finally, there's evidence of the Tikal and Kaanul, but not of the Nephites or Lamanites.

Anyway, I couldn't make a connection between Sherem and this story of the Tikal.

[_Bazooka]

So, how do we resolve the presence and actions of Sherem in the Book of Mormon?

Not sure.

How do we resolve that...

Discoveries of Maya occupation at Cuello, Belize have been carbon dated to around 2600 BCE.[2][3] The people built monumental structures. The Maya calendar, which is based on the so-called Mesoamerican Long Count calendar, begins on a date equivalent to 11 August 3114 BC.

...against the timeline and narrative of the Book of Mormon (not to mention the entire Church chronology of Adam and the flood)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization

[_subgenius]

I understand how difficult it can be to focus but the presence of and behavior of Sherem merits resolution.

[_Bazooka]

I understand how difficult it can be to focus but the presence of and behavior of Sherem merits resolution.

Then you have to connect Sahrem and the story of Tikal. Go on then....

[_subgenius]

The OP mentions the infamous stela at Tikal. Sherem is an adult male seemingly meeting Jacob for the first time.... seemingly odd for someone to have to "seek out" another in a community of maybe 50 people in such a newly formed community... especially to debate religion.
Tikal illustrates the reality of Nephi test interacting with outside communities.
Jacob 7:1 says "there came a man among the people of Nephi, whose name was Sherem," suggesting that he was not originally part of the Nephite group. Verse 4 notes that Sherem was fluent in a language that was perhaps not his own.

[_Dr. Shades]

. . . seemingly odd for someone to have to "seek out" another in a community of maybe 50 people in such a newly formed community[.]

Were the people of Tikal, or were the neighboring Kaanul (or the "Snake Kingdom"), the original Lehite colony?

Verse 4 notes that Sherem was fluent in a language that was perhaps not his own.

Did the people of Tikal and the neighboring Kaanul (or the "Snake Kingdom") speak different languages?

[_Brackite]

The OP mentions the infamous stela at Tikal. Sherem is an adult male seemingly meeting Jacob for the first time.... seemingly odd for someone to have to "seek out" another in a community of maybe 50 people in such a newly formed community... especially to debate religion.
Tikal illustrates the reality of Nephi test interacting with outside communities.
Jacob 7:1 says "there came a man among the people of Nephi, whose name was Sherem," suggesting that he was not originally part of the Nephite group. Verse 4 notes that Sherem was fluent in a language that was perhaps not his own.

Sub, Why would a non-Israelite want to be debating with Jacob about the fine points of the Mosaic law? Sherem refers to Jacob as "Brother Jacob" in verse six. Surely Sherem must have been a fellow Israelite. Yes? And then we have from verse 26, in that same Chapter, where Jacob refers to his people as "being a lonesome and a solemn people, wanderers, cast out from Jerusalem" towards the end of his life.

Jacob 7:

[26] And it came to pass that I, Jacob, began to be old; and the record of this people being kept on the other plates of Nephi, wherefore, I conclude this record, declaring that I have written according to the best of my knowledge, by saying that the time passed away with us, and also our lives passed away like as it were unto us a dream, we being a lonesome and a solemn people, wanderers, cast out from Jerusalem, born in tribulation, in a wilderness, and hated of our brethren, which caused wars and contentions; wherefore, we did mourn out our days.

From LDS Apologist John Welch:

Each of Sherem’s accusations can be traced to specific provisions in pre-exilic Israelite law:

1. Causing public apostasy. Leading other people or a city into apostasy was recognized as a serious infraction under the law of Moses and the Talmud. Deuteronomy 13:1–18 condemns to death any person, whether a prophet, or brother, or son, or wife, who says to the inhabitants of their city, “Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known” (Deuteronomy 13:13; see 13:2, 6). “Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; . . . but thou shalt surely kill him” (Deuteronomy 13:8–9).

In essence Sherem first claimed that Jacob had led the people away, i.e., into a state of apostasy from the way of God. Sherem claimed that Jacob had caused the people to pervert the right way of God, to keep not the law, and to convert the law into the worship of an unknown god. Indeed, the law of Moses defines the crime of causing apostasy as trying to thrust the people “out of the way which the Lord [their] God commanded [them] to walk in” (Deuteronomy 13:5).

Moreover, Sherem’s point that Jacob had converted the observance of the law of Moses into the worship of an unknown future being seems to have been based on the Deuteronomic prohibition against turning to serve new gods “which ye have not known” (Deuteronomy 13:2, 6, 13).

2. Blasphemy. Sherem’s second accusation also raised a capital charge. It was a felony under the law of Moses to blaspheme (see Exodus 20:7; Leviticus 24:10–16). Leviticus 24 established that any person who blasphemed, even in a brawl, was to be stoned to death. Sherem raised the charge of blasphemy against Jacob when he formally accused him, saying, “I, Sherem, declare unto you that this is blasphemy” (Jacob 7:7).

While the ancient history of the crime of blasphemy is obscure, this offense apparently embraced many forms of insolent or seditious speech, whether against God, against the king (see 1 Kings 21:10), against another man, or against holy places or things, including the law (compare Acts 6:13).

3. False Prophecy. Sherem’s words also advanced a claim of false prophecy. The test for whether a prophet had spoken truly or falsely was usually to see “if the thing follow not, nor come to pass” (Deuteronomy 18:22). Apparently Sherem tried to preclude this defense when he objected that Jacob had spoken of things too far distant in the future. When Sherem asserted categorically that “no man knoweth of such things” (Jacob 7:7), he seems to be arguing that prophecies of that nature should not be easily tolerated under the law. With shorter-term prophecies, one has the chance to test them within a reasonable time.

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.by ... 1&index=23

[_subgenius]

. . . seemingly odd for someone to have to "seek out" another in a community of maybe 50 people in such a newly formed community[.]

Were the people of Tikal, or were the neighboring Kaanul (or the "Snake Kingdom"), the original Lehite colony?
no comment

Verse 4 notes that Sherem was fluent in a language that was perhaps not his own.

Did the people of Tikal and the neighboring Kaanul (or the "Snake Kingdom") speak different languages?

probably

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayan_languages

"There are about 28 Mayan languages (as opposed to dialects). There are three main groups, the Huasteca, the Yucatecan, and the remainder (central lowlands to highlands). These three groups split apart as languages between 2000 and 1000 B.C. according to linguists."

http://inclusivebusiness.typepad.com/in ... tikal.html

but the point being made speaks more to a lack of isolation for the people that settled there.

[_Bazooka]

but the point being made speaks more to a lack of isolation for the people that settled there.

The doubts aren't about wether or not people other than Lehis landing party lived in the Americas before during and after the Book of Mormon era. There's plenty of evidence that they did. Proof of the landing party on the other hand....