Fifth Columnist wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 10:14 pm
SaturdaysVoyeur wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 9:06 pm
Are you seriously suggesting that a woman might not realize until afterwards that, say, the date who keeps pushing her and groping her and ignoring her verbal "No, I don't want to," until she finally gives up and just lets him get it over with was, in fact, sexually assaulting her?
SV, just to be clear. Is this what you believe Consig is arguing? If not, what exactly, do you believe Consig is arguing? I've read your post twice now and I'm having a hard time understanding how it relates to what Consig said.
I would prefer to clarify or expand on what I said in my own post, rather than try to summarize Consig's posts ('cause I think that risks imputing motives or tone to his words, and that would be kind of rude of me; he can speak much better for himself).
This idea of "retroactively revoking consent"? It's nonsense. It doesn't exist and it perpetuates the Vindictive Bitch trope, or the idea that women go around having consensual sex and then "crying rape" afterwards.
This harms women, because it's already very difficult for us to be heard and believed about the pervasiveness of the cultural support for sexual violence. (Note the distinction there between being believed about the pervasiveness of rape versus the pervasiveness of
cultural support for rape.)
There's no meaningful distinction between "retroactively revoking consent" and a victim who didn't realize until after the fact that what happened to her was sexual assault. The first is a misogynistic fiction; the second is a common problem that's rooted in the way women are expected to "prevent" ourselves from being assaulted (which, of course, is impossible), and then blamed
without fail when we are assaulted. 'Cause we didn't "prevent" it, you see.
But beyond that, they look the same, hence my objection. In both cases, someone says they consented to sexual contact, and then later says they had not actually consented. Esme laid out a beautiful post earlier about the variety of situations in which this can happen. Most of them boil down to there being NO POSSIBLE WAY for a woman to avoid being blamed for sexual violence perpetrated against her. None whatsoever.
Have you ever seen those obnoxious "Rape Prevention Tips"? They're often contradictory and virtually impossible to live by. They dramatically restrict women's lives and activities (as if the threat of rape is
our problem, so we have to rearrange our entire lives to "prevent" it). And they ignore the actual circumstances of the vast majority sexual assaults (usually perpetrated by a spouse, partner, or friend), so these "tips" don't even work.
Some examples include: Don't go anyplace by yourself (like I want or need a 24/7 babysitter). Don't go outside at night, even in your own yard (tricky during the winter when the sun sets while I'm still at work, plus my dog is going to piss in the house). Don't walk through parking garages. Don't walk near anyplace where someone could be hiding, like near parked cars. Don't talk on your phone, so as to be aware your surroundings. Look confident! (Because no one has ever raped a woman with a power strut!)
And those are the semi-sane ones. Some of them get truly nutty, like the old chestnut of carrying your car keys between your fingers (apparently to poke the would-be rapist into submission). Don't post any identifying information about yourself on social media. (Sorry, Mom, you don't get to see pics of the grandkids, because there might be a rapist stalking me on Facebook!) Never carry a purse, but always hide anything valuable. (I guess I have to hide that phone I'm not supposed to be using in my cleavage.)
I literally could not live my life if I attempted to abide by even some of this garbage. Yet when a woman is sexually assaulted, she is then at least partially blamed for the assault for having failed to "take safety precautions." Like I said to Consig, when you “F” with our heads that much, don't be surprised when we get a little bit confused sometimes about the implications of exactly what's happening when a previously trusted sexual partner is now ignoring our "no," or if we initially said yes and then decided to stop and he just kept right on going. Or if I'm not sure whether it's really rape because he's my spouse, or if I'm not sure it's really rape because my clitoris doesn't know about consent and my body had an orgasm.
You following me so far? I'm ok with questions. I'm really not some big harpy who's going to rip a man's head off for not magically understanding the ways in which women's perspectives may differ on some of these things.
Where this tied into Consig's post is that I strongly object to the concept of "retroactively revoking consent" because it doesn't exist and is merely YET ANOTHER way to blame women when we are assaulted, or at least to portray us as lying about it because we changed our story. I mean, how can you consent at the time, but then afterwards say you didn't really consent? Bitch has gotta be making that crap up!
If you consider the absurdly constricting rules we're supposed to follow "to prevent getting raped" (remind me again why it's MY responsibility to prevent it and not the rapist's??), it's quite easy to see the fallacious reasoning at work here. There was no "retroactively revoked consent;" there was in fact never consent in the first place, or the withdrawal of consent was not respected. There's nothing "retroactive" about it.
I'm really not upset with Consig, or with anyone else. I do find it troubling that my long, emotional posts were so praised when I was discrediting another woman (namely, Rosebud), but then I make a long, emotional post about the realities of my own goddamn life and suddenly my posts are long and emotional? Like, did you just notice that??
I think several men on here have since shared their own experiences of sexual assault, and I want to be clear here that I am certainly NOT suggesting that sexual violence only happens to women. I
am saying that these crazy-making no-win constructs in which the woman is always discredited and blamed for sexual assault is a significant part of the cultural support for violence against women.
C'mon, guys, you have NEVER been told with a straight face to not go outside at night even in your own yard, or to never go anywhere alone, or to not carry a bag, or to scrub your life off social media, or to somehow get into your car without either walking through a parking garage OR near parked cars. And then if you do any of these things, well, then you share the blame if you get raped! That simply does not happen to men.
So I am asking men to actually listen to us, rather than talk about women's lives as though men have authority on that. I don't think that's too big of an ask.
