Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, blind guide

[_Mittens]

1 Cor 15:

40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

The Heavenly man" celestial" is Jesus

Notice is the context of our terrestrial body that we have now [ corruption, dishonor, natural body, weakness]

versus our celestial bodies [heavenly , incorruption, honor, spiritual body, power]

interesting how the context is our bodies yet Mormons twist the context a say it's about three heavens

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terrestrial

Full Definition of TERRESTRIAL
a : of or relating to the earth or its inhabitants <terrestrial magnetism>

b : mundane in scope or character : prosaic

a : of or relating to land as distinct from air or water <terrestrial transportation>
b (1) : living on or in or growing from land <terrestrial plants> <terrestrial birds> (2) : of or relating to terrestrial organisms <terrestrial habits>


: belonging to the class of planets that are like the earth (as in density and silicate composition) <the terrestrial planets Mercury, Venus, and Mars>

Full Definition of Celestial

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/celestial

noun

an inhabitant of heaven.

a citizen of the Celestial Empire.


1st Heaven is Rakia to a Jew it is the atmospheric heaven found in Jer 8:7, 10:13
Isa 55:10. it is were the birds fly clouds, made on 2nd day

2nd heaven shamayim to a Jew it is the starry heaven found in Jer 44:17,25; Psalm 8:3

3rd heaven shemi Hashamayim it is the heaven where God dwells found in 1 Kings 8:27, Deut. 26:15, 2 Chron 6:33 Eccl. 5:2

[_The CCC]

The Trinity was a late Christian attempt to have their cake and eat it, too; to affirm at one and the same time the belief that there is one God, and the belief that Jesus is God (and the Holy Ghost, too, when it comes to that).

An often-said assertion of Mormons, and other non-Trinitarians, but I would like to see the documentation that shows this. Also, there is not "too", there just is, "is".

Instead of harmonizing the two ideas, the Trinity simply claims both mutually exclusive ideas to be correct and declares the rationale to be a mystery.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

God has revealed himself as One. God has also revealed himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Mormons attempt to divide God, into Gods, calling this polytheistic belief "one God". Silliness, if you ask me.

God, Jesus, Holy Ghost, are one God. We mortals are to become like God, and Jesus are one God. If you are a Christian you are a polytheist.
SEE John 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

[_ludwigm]

Is this really the kind of mindless rhetoric you learn over at CARM?

I start my knock about the world from a different platform than You, but at this point we have been met...

[_ludwigm]

PURE WORSHIP

[no img yet] http://theresilientearth.com/files/imag ... ffaele.jpg[/img]

These are members of a New Hebrides cargo cult.

- [#img] http://m.blog.hu/le/leiterjakab/image/thumb.jpg[/img] - as there is no such smilie

Nice little video...

Mittens, would you please answer my question regarding the similarities between certain christian rituals and Pacific island cargo cults?

Thank you.

No answer as usual.

[_Mittens]

https://youtu.be/0HoJViQwR5I

Actual video of speech I posted on my personal you tube

[_malkie]

PURE WORSHIP



These are members of a New Hebrides cargo cult.

- - as there is no such smilie

Nice little video...

Mittens, would you please answer my question regarding the similarities between certain christian rituals and Pacific island cargo cults?

Thank you.

No answer as usual.

[_Mittens]

Jeffrey Holland exposed for the liar he is





https://youtu.be/0HoJViQwR5I

With such a confusing definition of God being imposed upon the church, little wonder that a fourth century monk cried out, “Woe is me! They have taken my God away from me, and I know not whom to adore, or to address.”


Rebuttal: It never ceases to amaze the objective observer of Mormon apologetic strategy the lengths such apologists go to try and justify their arguments. Here, Holland fails to inform his audience of just who this monk was, or the circumstances surrounding his utterance. For the fourth century monk was the heretic Serapion, and the reason why he cried out was that he discovered that the “Anthropomorphite” god that he had been worshiping turned out to be a false god. The Anthropomorphites were a band of Egyptian monks that held a similar corporeal view of God that the Mormons currently do, and when Serapion is confronted with the error of his thinking, according the Early Church Father, John Cassian, Serapion “was drawn to the faith of the Catholic tradition.” During a prayer of thanksgiving Serapion was so emotionally overcome that “he burst into a flood of bitter tears and continual sobs, and cast himself down on the ground and exclaimed with strong groanings” his woeful statement. Therefore, a little context always helps to understand just what is going on, rather than a mere emotional special pleading, and misleading people into thinking something that is contrary to fact.


http://capro.information/lds-general-author...oint-rebuttal/

[_Mittens]

Utterly incoherent. I can't make heads or tails of this. Anyone else?

I'm an atheist, and I got it.

Looks like a personal problem to me.

Pay stub for Mormon leader


https://www.docdroid.net/GEbupXj/apostl ... d.pdf.html

[_Physics Guy]

The discussion of the Trinity at the beginning of this thread is kind of old now but I find it interesting.

The doctrine of the Trinity has survived a long time in spite of its difficulty and over the centuries there has been a lot of thought about it. It may well be nothing in the end but obfuscation piled onto nonsense, but it's weird for a former university president to ignore all of it so completely. Holland's learning on the topic looks to be about that of a high-school student who has just Googled "council of Nicaea".

It seems to me that any thinking person ought to find the Trinity interesting as a concept. I mean, you could probably win a Hugo award for a science fiction novel about a super-intelligent alien being whose mind has something that goes as much beyond human-style consciousness as consciousness goes beyond animal awareness. What would that even be? Well, the Trinity is at least a decent stab at such a conception.

As such, it doesn't have much competition. From ancient myth to Star Trek there have been many depictions of god-like beings whose psychology seems banally human. And there have been many depictions of superhuman powers whose impersonal superhumanity amounts to being big but mindless, like a hurricane. How many models are there even, besides the Trinity, for a being that is not less than a person, but more?

I can think of a few nearly-there examples from science fiction. Vernor Vinge's brilliant A Fire Upon the Deep has transcendent Powers, but Old One's direct manifestations are indistinguishable from a human character and the Blight is really just a sort of virus. The same book also has the pack-minded Tines, in which half-a-dozen animal awarenesses merge into one human-like consciousness. Then there is the vision of multiple levels of trans-human intelligence that is sketched out by Stanislaw Lem's Golem XIV. This awe-inspiring idea is really a clever trick for making a superhuman mind seem real without providing any detail, by having the superhuman mind talk about the general concept of superhuman minds.

These examples are both famous classics of high-concept sci-fi. So I don't think you have to believe in the Trinity, or even believe that Trinitarian theology really works as a coherently fleshed-out concept, to find the Trinity interesting as an attempt at a difficult kind of idea. To dismiss it as Holland does is pretty philistine for a university president.

[_Mittens]

The Trinity permeated the early Mormon religion until it was thrown under the bus after 1835

2 Nephi 31:
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.


Mormon 7:
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses
And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

Doctrine and Covenants 20 :
28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.