Skousen's Introduction to Book of Mormon

[_Lemmie]

I would agree there was some collaborative interaction/syncing with View of the Hebrews, The Late War, Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, etc.

Yes, when forced to explain plagiarism, it is entertaining to hear the synonyms that people come up with to try to cover their ass.

[_I have a question]

Again, the plates were not being used directly during the translation so all bets are off as to exactly what was going on although we do know there was some kind of interactive collaboration/syncing between Joseph's mind and whatever other 'input' there was...and the resultant words seen using the seerstone in the hat.

How do you know this? can you be more specific about what you mean by interactive collaboration/syncing and how it is known that that is what happened?

Particularly since it doesn't seem to match up with the official LDS essay version?

*ahem* KJV verses, including spelling errors and italics.

Interactive collaboration/syncing = copying verbatim from the Bible.

From the thread on cognitive dissonance...

Festinger and his co-authors concluded that the following conditions lead to increased conviction in beliefs following disconfirmation:

1. The belief must be held with deep conviction and be relevant to the believer's actions or behavior.
2. The belief must have produced actions that are difficult to undo.
3. The belief must be sufficiently specific and concerned with the real world such that it can be clearly disconfirmed.
4. The disconfirmatory evidence must be recognized by the believer.
5. The believer must have social support from other believers.[53]

And

Dissonance reduction can be achieved by changing behavior, changing cognition, or selectively acquiring new information or opinions. To use Festinger's example of a smoker who has knowledge that smoking is bad for his health, the smoker may reduce dissonance by choosing to quit smoking, by changing his thoughts about the effects of smoking (e.g., smoking is not as bad for your health as others claim), or by acquiring knowledge pointing to the positive effects of smoking (e.g., smoking prevents weight gain).

[_mentalgymnast]

I would agree there was some collaborative interaction/syncing with View of the Hebrews, The Late War, Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, etc.

Hi Kishkumen,

The problem that I keep coming back to that I haven't been able to get a handle on is HOW did Joseph...assuming that you are correct...compile the writings/views of all these folks into a tidy little place in his brain and then regurgitate it while his head is in a hat and the translation/dictation period is evidenced to have occurred over a relatively short period of time. I've seen folks try and stretch out the dictation period and/or suggest the use of 'crib' sheets while Joseph's head was in a hat, but I haven't really seen that 'fly' any farther than the simple suggestion that, well, this may have been how he did it. Much of the other researched material that I've read over the years seems to agree/suggest that there WAS a short window in which the actually transcribing/dictation took place and that Joseph didn't have access to 'crib' sheets. It was just the stone in the hat.

So anyway, I've heard your point of view a number of times but it seems to me that it takes more 'faith' to go your direction than it does to go with what the historical evidence from witnesses, etc., seems to show. As a result, I still default to the position that I summarized here recently on this thread.

Regards,
MG

[_grindael]

One thing people should ask themselves, if the rock that Smith used was all that he claimed why did he ALWAYS have to use a hat? Why not use it at night. He could still read what was there. (He used it for other things besides his "translation"). No one ever saw him do so, it was always with the hat.

[_I have a question]

When the Prophet Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon was “the most correct of any book on earth,”12 he wasn’t speaking of grammar, spelling, and punctuation, as we can clearly see by the many corrections that have been made over the years. He was speaking of the precious truths it contains, including witnesses of Jesus Christ and His gospel that have not changed since they were written by prophets centuries ago. From metal plates to manuscript pages to printed books, these truths have remained unchanged through the centuries.

https://history.LDS.org/article/the-boo ... s?lang=eng

Well, apart from the bit about it coming from metal plates, obviously.

[_Lemmie]

the translation/dictation period is evidenced to have occurred over a relatively short period of time. I've seen folks try and stretch out the dictation period and/or suggest the use of 'crib' sheets while Joseph's head was in a hat, but I haven't really seen that 'fly' any farther than the simple suggestion that, well, this may have been how he did it. Much of the other researched material that I've read over the years seems to agree/suggest that there WAS a short window in which the actually transcribing/dictation took place and that Joseph didn't have access to 'crib' sheets. It was just the stone in the hat.

Could you provide a reference on the evidence for period of time? Also what is the evidence that JSJr had access to nothing but the rock and hat? It was a while since I left, but I'm having a hard time with 'evidence' that is different than the 'evidence' I heard growing up.

If you mean you are speculating on the process, or even taking an educated guess, then say so. But if you say evidence, then provide it.

Again, the plates were not being used directly during the translation so all bets are off as to exactly what was going on although we do know there was some kind of interactive collaboration/syncing between Joseph's mind and whatever other 'input' there was...and the resultant words seen using the seerstone in the hat.

The downside of ignoring somebody in a pout is that when you don't answer their questions or provide requested evidence, you de facto cannot support your statement and therefore it can be considered withdrawn.

Going forward, I can then assume that your statement that 'we know there was some kind of interactive collaboration/syncing' is retracted and that ihaq's and Kishkumen's interpretations that JSJr plagiarized will be the accepted interpretation.

Wow, I should be profane more often, getting to assume mentalgymnast retracts his unsupported statements certainly makes conversations much calmer, more logical, and a lot more fun!

[_Maksutov]

The Book of Mormon is a channeled text. There were props used to make the channeled text appear more authentic. None of those props are available to us, only the text. Compare the Book of Mormon with other channeled texts produced from Smith's time clear up to the present. There are thousands of them. There are many people who find them compelling and many who find them absurd. We've talked about the Urantians but there is also the "Seth material" produced by Jane Roberts. There were decades of channeled works from spiritualists and Theosophists. There are channeled texts from Mark and Elizabeth Clare Prophet, from Aleister Crowley, there are texts generated within UFO religions, there are the many latter day restorationist revelation texts.

The more that you read of these texts, the more similar they become. They're modern day apocryphal, pseudepigraphic works. They are full of pretentious neohistorical word salad and pseudoscience, couched in a language that resonates with the subcultures of the followers. Recently the works generated by the UFO religions are the most ambitious, since they pretend to communicate principles of physics beyond current human understanding, yet the UFO groups grew out of theosophy and pulp science fiction rather than bona fide scientific investigation; their ridiculous stories about other planets in our solar system are often drawn from Swedenborg and the spiritualists of the mid 1800s. Increasingly they involve wild conspiracy theories of secret histories and alien alliances and vast orchestrated hoaxes.

[_Res Ipsa]

The Book of Mormon is a channeled text. There were props used to make the channeled text appear more authentic. None of those props are available to us, only the text. Compare the Book of Mormon with other channeled texts produced from Smith's time clear up to the present. There are thousands of them. There are many people who find them compelling and many who find them absurd. We've talked about the Urantians but there is also the "Seth material" produced by Jane Roberts. There were decades of channeled works from spiritualists and Theosophists. There are channeled texts from Mark and Elizabeth Clare Prophet, from Aleister Crowley, there are texts generated within UFO religions, there are the many latter day restorationist revelation texts.

The more that you read of these texts, the more similar they become. They're modern day apocryphal, pseudepigraphic works. They are full of pretentious neohistorical word salad and pseudoscience, couched in a language that resonates with the subcultures of the followers. Recently the works generated by the UFO religions are the most ambitious, since they pretend to communicate principles of physics beyond current human understanding, yet the UFO groups grew out of theosophy and pulp science fiction rather than bona fide scientific investigation; their ridiculous stories about other planets in our solar system are often drawn from Swedenborg and the spiritualists of the mid 1800s. Increasingly they involve wild conspiracy theories of secret histories and alien alliances and vast orchestrated hoaxes.

Don't forget the OAHSPE!

[_Maksutov]

The Book of Mormon is a channeled text. There were props used to make the channeled text appear more authentic. None of those props are available to us, only the text. Compare the Book of Mormon with other channeled texts produced from Smith's time clear up to the present. There are thousands of them. There are many people who find them compelling and many who find them absurd. We've talked about the Urantians but there is also the "Seth material" produced by Jane Roberts. There were decades of channeled works from spiritualists and Theosophists. There are channeled texts from Mark and Elizabeth Clare Prophet, from Aleister Crowley, there are texts generated within UFO religions, there are the many latter day restorationist revelation texts.

The more that you read of these texts, the more similar they become. They're modern day apocryphal, pseudepigraphic works. They are full of pretentious neohistorical word salad and pseudoscience, couched in a language that resonates with the subcultures of the followers. Recently the works generated by the UFO religions are the most ambitious, since they pretend to communicate principles of physics beyond current human understanding, yet the UFO groups grew out of theosophy and pulp science fiction rather than bona fide scientific investigation; their ridiculous stories about other planets in our solar system are often drawn from Swedenborg and the spiritualists of the mid 1800s. Increasingly they involve wild conspiracy theories of secret histories and alien alliances and vast orchestrated hoaxes.

Don't forget the OAHSPE!

Indeed. There were a few Kosmons here in Utah until recently.

[_Kishkumen]

Hi Kishkumen,

The problem that I keep coming back to that I haven't been able to get a handle on is HOW did Joseph...assuming that you are correct...compile the writings/views of all these folks into a tidy little place in his brain and then regurgitate it while his head is in a hat and the translation/dictation period is evidenced to have occurred over a relatively short period of time. I've seen folks try and stretch out the dictation period and/or suggest the use of 'crib' sheets while Joseph's head was in a hat, but I haven't really seen that 'fly' any farther than the simple suggestion that, well, this may have been how he did it. Much of the other researched material that I've read over the years seems to agree/suggest that there WAS a short window in which the actually transcribing/dictation took place and that Joseph didn't have access to 'crib' sheets. It was just the stone in the hat.

So anyway, I've heard your point of view a number of times but it seems to me that it takes more 'faith' to go your direction than it does to go with what the historical evidence from witnesses, etc., seems to show. As a result, I still default to the position that I summarized here recently on this thread.

Regards,
MG

Well, mg, since you are wedded to the idea that the composition of the Book of Mormon is miraculous, I doubt anyone will be able to convince you otherwise. But there is nothing inherently miraculous about it. It may be remarkable, or extraordinary, but miraculous? Divine? Your judgment on that is bound to be subjective. The problem is that there are many other remarkable books, some of which remain entirely unexplained and completely opaque. You don't spend your time explaining those, and you may not even be aware of many of them. I doubt you are at all concerned about the question of their origins. Your investment in the Book of Mormon is entirely partisan and it is conducted safely within the boundaries of acceptable LDS discourse. If anyone tries to break you out of that comfortable territory, you retreat to these subjective statements about how miraculous and inscrutable the book's origins are. You believe that any unexplained aspect of the book's composition is proof against a reasonable hypothesis and definitely in favor of a miraculous origin. I doubt very many people who are not of a Restoration background would consider its origins beyond mundane. It would be one thing if the book were good, and were not obviously cribbed from sources like the Bible, but it was. So, where's the miracle? What is there that warrants this programmed aporia you adopt whenever the virus of sensible thought gets anywhere near your cherished testimony?