Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent

[_Shulem]

Explanation 1 Abraham sitting upon Pharaoh’s throne, by the politeness of the king, with a crown upon his head, representing the Priesthood, as emblematical of the grand Presidency in Heaven; with the scepter of justice and judgment in his hand.

This is dead wrong. This is merely an attempt by (faker) Joseph Smith to usurp the Bible god over the Egyptian religion by hijacking sacred Egyptian texts and spouting off complete lies. Joseph Smith had no right under the sun to convert Osiris into Abraham. The interpretation is utterly wrong and the fact that the Mormon church today continues to stand by this nonsense is proof that the church is rotten and corrupt at the core. The publication is an insult to ancient Egypt and a direct threat to modern Egyptology.

Mormonism started in lies and continues to live in those lies today. Osiris is NOT Abraham! The LDS church is a disgrace and has done nothing but insult and slander the ancient Egyptian religion. The leaders of the LDS church are men of low character and proven liars.

I demand the LDS church to remove the slanderous Facsimile No. 3 from their scriptures and apologize for these gross errors.

[_grindael]

...even put himself in the Book of Genesis.

Wow. I either missed this or forgot it from my long-past Mo days. Do you mind telling me what he inserted?

Here is Genesis Chapter 50 from the "Inspired Version" of the Bible (see larger text below, salient points underlined):

Chapter 50

Israel is buried in Canaan--Joseph prophesies of a righteous branch, the Messiah, and a choice seer--Joseph dies

Gen 50:1 And Joseph fell upon his father's face, and wept upon him, and kissed him.

Gen 50:2 And Joseph commanded his servants, the physicians, to embalm his father; and the physicians embalmed Israel.

Gen 50:3 And forty days were fulfilled for him; for so are fulfilled the days of those which are embalmed; and the Egyptians mourned for him threescore and ten days.

Gen 50:4 And when the days of his mourning were past, Joseph spake unto the house of Pharaoh, saying, If now I have found grace in your eyes, speak, I pray you, in the ears of Pharaoh, saying,

Gen 50:5 My father made me swear, saying, Lo, I die; in my grave which I have digged for me in the land of Canaan, there shalt thou bury me. Now, therefore, let me go up, I pray thee, and bury my father; and I will come again.

Gen 50:6 And Pharaoh said, Go up, and bury thy father, according as he made thee swear.

Gen 50:7 And Joseph went up to bury his father; and with him went up all the servants of Pharaoh, the elders of his house, and all the elders of the land of Egypt,

Gen 50:8 And all the house of Joseph, and his brethren, and his father's house; only their little ones, and their flocks, and their herds they left in the land of Goshen.

Gen 50:9 And there went up with him both chariots and horsemen; and it was a very great company.

Gen 50:10 And they came to the threshing floor of Atad, which is beyond Jordan; and there they mourned with a great and very sore lamentation; and he made a mourning for his father seven days.

Gen 50:11 And when the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, saw the mourning in the floor of Atad, they said, This is a grievous mourning to the Egyptians; wherefore, the name of it was called Abel-mizraim, which is beyond Jordan.

Gen 50:12 And his sons did unto him according as he commanded them;

Gen 50:13 For his sons carried him into the land of Canaan and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, which Abraham bought with the field for a possession of a burying place of Ephron, the Hittite, before Mamre.

Gen 50:14 And Joseph returned into Egypt, he, and his brethren, and all that went up with him to bury his father, after he had buried his father.

Gen 50:15 And when Joseph's brethren saw that their father was dead, they said, Joseph will peradventure hate us and will certainly requite us all the evil which we did unto him.

Gen 50:16 And they sent a messenger unto Joseph, saying, Thy father did command before he died, saying,

Gen 50:17 So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil; and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.

Gen 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.

Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not. For am I in the place of God?

Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Gen 50:21 Now, therefore, fear ye not; I will nourish you and your little ones. And he comforted them and spake kindly unto them.

Gen 50:22 And Joseph dwelt in Egypt, he and his father's house; and Joseph lived a hundred and ten years.

Gen 50:23 And Joseph saw Ephraim's children of the third generation; the children also of Machir, the son of Manasseh, were brought up upon Joseph's knees.

Gen 50:24 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die and go unto my fathers; and I go down to my grave with joy. The God of my father Jacob be with you, to deliver you out of affliction in the days of your bondage; for the Lord hath visited me, and I have obtained a promise of the Lord that out of the fruit of my loins the Lord God will raise up a righteous branch out of my loins; and unto thee, whom my father Jacob hath named Israel, a prophet (not the Messiah who is called Shilo); and this prophet shall deliver my people out of Egypt in the days of thy bondage.

Gen 50:25 And it shall come to pass that they shall be scattered again; and a branch shall be broken off and shall be carried into a far country; nevertheless, they shall be remembered in the covenants of the Lord when the Messiah cometh; for he shall be made manifest unto them in the latter days, in the Spirit of power, and shall bring them out of darkness into light--out of hidden darkness and out of captivity unto freedom.

Gen 50:26 A seer shall the Lord my God raise up, who shall be a choice seer unto the fruit of my loins.

Gen 50:27 Thus saith the Lord God of my fathers unto me, A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and he shall be esteemed highly among the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work for the fruit of thy loins, his brethren.

Gen 50:28 And he shall bring them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers; and he shall do whatsoever work I shall command him.

Gen 50:29 And I will make him great in mine eyes, for he shall do my work; and he shall be great like unto him whom I have said I would raise up unto you, to deliver my people, O house of Israel, out of the land of Egypt; for a seer will I raise up to deliver my people out of the land of Egypt; and he shall be called Moses. And by this name he shall know that he is of thy house; for he shall be nursed by the king's daughter and shall be called her son.

Gen 50:30 And again, a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins--and not to the bringing forth of my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them in the last days;

Gen 50:31 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write, and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah shall grow together unto the confounding of false doctrines, and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to a knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.

Gen 50:32 And out of weakness shall he be made strong in that day when my work shall go forth among all my people, which shall restore them who are of the house of Israel in the last days.

Gen 50:33 And that seer will I bless, and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise I give unto you; for I will remember you from generation to generation; and his name shall be called Joseph, and it shall be after the name of his father; and he shall be like unto you; for the thing which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand shall bring my people unto salvation.

Gen 50:34 And the Lord sware unto Joseph that he would preserve his seed forever, saying, I will raise up Moses, and a rod shall be in his hand; and he shall gather together my people, and he shall lead them as a flock; and he shall smite the waters of the Red Sea with his rod.

Gen 50:35 And he shall have judgment and shall write the word of the Lord. And he shall not speak many words, for I will write unto him my law by the finger of mine own hand. And I will make a spokesman for him, and his name shall be called Aaron.

Gen 50:36 And it shall be done unto thee in the last days also, even as I have sworn. Therefore, Joseph said unto his brethren, God will surely visit you and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware unto Abraham, and unto Isaac, and to Jacob.

Gen 50:37 And Joseph confirmed many other things unto his brethren and took an oath of the children of Israel, saying unto them, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.

Gen 50:38 So Joseph died when he was a hundred and ten years old; and they embalmed him, and they put him in a coffin in Egypt; and he was kept from burial by the children of Israel, that he might be carried up and laid in the sepulcher with his father. And thus they remembered the oath which they sware unto him.

This was in 1831! Smith sure had grand notions about himself. The narcissism here is staggering.

[_krose]

...even put himself in the Book of Genesis.

Wow. I either missed this or forgot it from my long-past Mo days. Do you mind telling me what he inserted?

Here is Genesis Chapter 50 from the "Inspired Version" of the Bible (see larger text below, salient points underlined):

<snip>

Thank you for that. Parts of that are, word for word, identical to II Nephi chapter 3.

This appears to be his way of closing the circle of prophecy and its fulfillment. The Book of Mormon verses predicting him as a "choice seer" who would be "great like unto Moses" were supposedly a prophecy by Joseph of Egypt, so this is that Joseph actually delivering that prophecy.

I'm just surprised he didn't find himself in the PoGP papyri, to make it four for four in the standard works. Of course that would have been in the Book of Joseph scroll, wouldn't it.

[_EdGoble]

Ed:

Given the above comments, how on earth can you be indignant at Philo and his conversion to the actual truth? Shouldn't you take a hard look at what's been said so far about your theories and perhaps rethink them? Further your silence is a loud-speaker to anyone paying attention to what's transpired.

I find it most productive to let time go by for my detractors to say what they are going to say before I dedicate time to respond. I am not bound by anyone's schedule to respond when they hope I will.

[_EdGoble]

Gotcha. Special pleading it is.

No its not.

You have a method of producing a text from a source document that cannot be used to produce a different text from a different source document.

That was never my claim. You need to understand my claim. You don't.

It only exists for this one special case. How is anyone supposed to verify your theory if the only thing it can produce is the Book of Abraham from the JSP?

It can't produce the Book of Abraham from the JSP. That wasn't the claim. For example, if a hard drive is blank because it never contained data, then you can't copy data from it. My claim has to do with how the Sensen Papyrus and its symbols were used with the book of Abraham by people that did this stuff a long time after the Sensen Papyrus was first written. They decided to re-use it different from the way the author of the Sensen Papyrus intended for its use. That's called Iconotropy. I never said anything about it containing the text of the Book of Abraham. Therefore, you can't "extract" the book of Abraham from something that never contained it.

Look, I'm neither an Egyptologist or an ancient historian. I am an academic, but economics doesn't help much in understanding the Book of Abraham.

Oh, but being an academic means that you can understand if you try to. So let's try to understand what I'm actually saying.

So, like many of us here, I am unqualified to either verify or refute your theory.

Actually, you are qualified to deal with something rigorously if you choose.

So I'm in a position of having to rely on experts to filter out the pseudoscience from actual science. Egyptologists have a method of translating ancient documents that appears to be reliable and consistent, and independently verifiable -- I'm comfortable relying on their interpretations of the JSP.

That is good, because nobody said that their interpretations of the JSP are wrong, especially me.

You have a claim that fits outside the mainstream.

Actually its not hard to understand and it isn't all that crazy if you really think about it, or outside the norm of any kind of established or known type of symbology.

That does not make it wrong, but it does mean I, as a non-expert, have no reason to give it any credence until you can find someone qualified to agree you're on to something.

Actually, no, your mind is sufficient to apply skepticism to bad claims or creedence to good claims no matter where they come from.

Not to simply be Kerry's parrot, but go publish something in a peer-reviewed outlet.

Sorry. No. I've explained why countless times.

Hell, get other apologists to at least back you up. Otherwise we'll just sit here and quote Ritner all day, because he can back up what he's saying.

Not while other apologists sit there and pick their noses over missing papyri that don't exist.

All that said, I am an academic and I do understand how the process works. I understand falsifiability. I understand burden of proof. It is not on any of us to refute your theory just because you think you can back into a Book of Abraham translation. It's incumbent on you to give us a reason to give your theory any attention.

No kidding.

Show that your theory predicts something, then show that the prediction is true. Or get a peer-reviewed publication. Get accepted to present your theory at an academic conference. Something. Anything, but whining about a bunch of assholes on a message board not giving your theory the time of day.

I have shown it. Burden is on you to look at it. You do happen to be assholes. That is true.

[_EdGoble]

Why? Why come to this Board and defend Mormoronism?

Because you people have heads on your shoulders and have the capacity to actually think about what I'm saying. This is the one place where I have a remote chance of actually getting through to someone. Apologists that are stuck on missing papyri are not honest seekers of truth. You people happen to actually care about truth. That is something that I have in common with you.

[_EdGoble]

Ed has a great opportunity here. We have lots of Egyptian papyri that could be translated using his method. Forget the Joseph Smith Papyri for now. If it's a valid method -- and, per Ed, this kind of translation method was apparently well-known by the ancients -- then it should work for other ancient Egyptian papyri. Go find another ancient document and translate its secret book to us, please!

If, on the other hand, despite how well-known this method was to the ancients, it is only the Joseph Smith Papyri that require this kind of translation, then the entire hypothesis is one big heap of special pleading. Using the Book of Abraham to back out a "translation" from the JSP, which only needs to be done once, for this particular document, accomplishes nothing.

Actually no. It is using the KEP (Kirtland Egyptian Papers) as a way to reverse-engineer what ancient people were trying to use these symbols for, and to demonstrate that the usage of them in this manner is indeed corroborated by ancient precedent, to demonstrate that there is rationality here. It has nothing to do with using some magical or even mechanical method to try to produce new material.

[_EdGoble]

Hieratic script is NOT really "little pictures" of things.

Oh, but they most certainly are. They are cursive versions of the hieroglyphic uniliteral, biliteral, triliteral (single-consonantal, bi-consonantal, and tri-consonantal) and determinative signs. Each and every one of these is a little picture of something. You have no idea what you are talking about, and your statement is absolutely asinine. Go read the most basic book on Egyptian grammar.

Do we have whole documents made using alternate concepts of words or letters?

That's not at all what the claim is. In the Psalms in the Hebrew Bible you have acrostics which are literary mappings of single Hebrew characters to paragraphs of text. This is akin to what is going on in the KEP, where you have mappings to characters for artistic purposes, for decorating text with characters for artistic, literal purposes. Don't be a retard. I ask you to really think about what I just said in this paragraph. If you can't get what I just said, you are truly a retard. I ask any of you who claim to be academics to think about what I just said, really carefully in contrast to Mr. Retard grinadel here that thinks he knows what I'm saying, who doesn't know the first thing about what he thinks he is criticizing. Where in this statement did I state that these characters "contained" anything, or had some "alternate" meaning to them? Don't be an idiot. The Hebrew Alphabet does not translate to the Psalms, and in like manner, the Sensen Papyrus characters do not translate to the Book of Abraham. They are used in an art-form manner in the same stinking kind of way that the Hebrew Alphabet is used in the Psalms. This is not a hard concept. But to Mr. Grinadel, it is lost on him, because he truly is a retard. Mr. Grinadel must think the Hebrew Alphabet can magically translate to the Psalms and this is what Biblical Scholars must be thinking when they suggest that there is an acrostic in the Psalms. Don't be an idiot.

We can actually SEE and study this evidence for ourselves, we don't have to take his word for it, we don't have to rely on someone claiming that ABSTRACT, ALTERNATE meanings for the heiratic somehow translates into the Book of Abraham and that Joseph KNEW this and that is what his GAEL is all about.

You really are stupid. It is as abstract usage of Sensen characters as the usage of the Hebrew Alphabet is abstract when used as an acrostic. You are a stupid idiot and have no stinking idea what you are criticizing. I have no problem calling you a retard. And if the rest of you can't get it, the rest of you are stupid idiots too. Listen to what I'm saying, and read it. If you can't comprehend, its because you are all true idiots. If you aren't, and you truly are academicians as you claim, then act like it and read what I just wrote here. Otherwise, I say you are all idiots. It is the most simple concept in the world to comprehend. Read it.

[_moksha]

Shulem and Philo Sofee both jump the fence and landed on the same side.

Stuff you never thought you'd see in a catrillion years.
;-)

Miracles do happen! This board may actually have a purpose. Our long lost Zeezrom is another good example.

Seems to me that is a process almost all apologists must go through depending on whether they come clean with themselves or double down in their apologetics.

[_Themis]

My claim has to do with how the Sensen Papyrus and its symbols were used with the book of Abraham by people that did this stuff a long time after the Sensen Papyrus was first written. They decided to re-use it different from the way the author of the Sensen Papyrus intended for its use. That's called Iconotropy.

The author of the sensen papyrus would have buried it shortly after written, so there is no one else to re-purpose it's meaning.