Long lives of the antedeluvian patriarchs

[_The CCC]

Methodists are not open to new knowledge? CFR.

I didn't say that. The LDS don't have a set dogma. Which sometimes is said as LDS doctrine is like jello trying to stick to a wall. "In the South, Baptists won’t live in the same neighborhood as Pentecostals. In the North, we say that, “Methodists are Baptists that can read.”

[_spotlight]

I didn't say that. The LDS don't have a set dogma. Which sometimes is said as LDS doctrine is like jello trying to stick to a wall. "In the South, Baptists won’t live in the same neighborhood as Pentecostals. In the North, we say that, “Methodists are Baptists that can read.”

Ok, so Jesus is not the Son of God then I guess, the Book of Mormon is not literal history, and Joseph Smith is not the prophet of the restoration. These are simply items of dogma that Mormons do not have to believe? What about payment of tithing? Is that something you can neglect and remain in good standing or is that an item of dogma? And porn shoulders for the women?

[_Maksutov]

Methodists are not open to new knowledge? CFR.

I didn't say that. The LDS don't have a set dogma. Which sometimes is said as LDS doctrine is like jello trying to stick to a wall. "In the South, Baptists won’t live in the same neighborhood as Pentecostals. In the North, we say that, “Methodists are Baptists that can read.”

The LDS have very set standards for what you can drink, smoke, wear, how you look. They have very set standards for your financial contributions and your assignment to an administrative unit called a "ward". Everything else can be ectoplasm, fog and highly polished fecal material so long as we keep up appearances and pay, pray and obey on demand. Thanks a bunch.

[Guest]

The first ordinance and principle of the gospel is faith for good reason. There are aspects of religion that match up with archeological and dna and historical evidence. That being said scientific proof in proving the Book of Mormon and or Bible is meaningless. The fast majority of faithful members don't rely on scientific evidence nor do they need it. Their witness of gospel truth comes from a higher power that can't be explained by science. But millions of people can testify of its power and miraculous deeply personal or public events that are only explained by one thing that is God.

Spotlight points out antediluvian patriarchs as if that matters. Science can't prove or explain many things in the scriptures. Christ being born of a virgin, his resurrection, atonement, the healing of the sick etc etc. Every member takes these accounts on a matter of faith. Just because science has no explanation doesn't mean it didn't happen. That is what faith is.

Deeply spiritual and personal experience with the spirit strengthening faith will always be a bed rock of the Church. Members don't have to prove a single thing. Its science and God that has to prove its theories or truth. God needs to provide a witness to only those who sincerely want to know. Asking for proof is not sincerity nor is it part of the first ordinances and principles of the gospel.

Some members to include myself speculate with current scientific research to explain some aspects of religion that correlate with science. But that is really meaningless to a members eternal goals and happiness. The most essential aspects of the scriptures Christ Atonement his miracles etc can't be explained by current scientists. After the resurrection when all will be revealed is a different story.

Choosing to follow God to the end of our mortal existence without physical proof or coercion is why we are here.

[_huckelberry]

In the North, we say that, “Methodists are Baptists that can read.”

I only remember that phrase as part of an extended examination of fly fishing as religion.

That memorable discussion revealed much about religion, family and fly fishing.

[_Themis]

The fast majority of faithful members don't rely on scientific evidence nor do they need it.

Most don't when it comes to many beliefs, but would be better served if they did.

Their witness of gospel truth comes from a higher power that can't be explained by science. But millions of people can testify of its power and miraculous deeply personal or public events that are only explained by one thing that is God.

Science is doing quite well in this area, and it's only getting better.

Spotlight points out antediluvian patriarchs as if that matters. Science can't prove or explain many things in the scriptures. Christ being born of a virgin, his resurrection, atonement, the healing of the sick etc etc. Every member takes these accounts on a matter of faith. Just because science has no explanation doesn't mean it didn't happen. That is what faith is.

Not sure how science is supposed to prove claimed events from thousands of years ago. It can show whether things like different religious groups who practice healing's have better health outcomes then groups who don't. Your faith is blind, meaning believing things for which you have no good evidentiary reasons to.

Asking for proof is not sincerity

Neither is faith. A person asking for proof is usually being quite sincere that they will believe it if you give them proof.

Some members to include myself speculate with current scientific research to explain some aspects of religion that correlate with science.

Just wish you would learn some science and be more open minded. You have ignored my point about haplo type x clearly dating long before Book of Mormon times. You clearly show your lack of sincerity with scientific facts.

Choosing to follow God to the end of our mortal existence without physical proof or coercion is why we are here.

That's asking for someone to guess and open themselves to being manipulated by cons. Especially religious ones like Joseph's religious con.

[_bomgeography]

Millions of members can testify of deeply personal experiences through pray and reading the scriptures.
Their faith has brought them peace contentment happiness and assurance for life after death.

Science will never be able to explain why millions of people have spiritual experiences unless the accept that god and the Holy Spirit exist.

[_spotlight]

The first ordinance and principle of the gospel is faith for good reason.

Hi bomgeography,

Radionuclide dating disproves the necessary timeline for the Book of Mormon to be credible. I was a believing LDS in the era of Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R McConkie so I devoted my early life to the task of finding a way to make sense of this area of disagreement between church doctrine and the views of science. I earnestly looked at every possibility expecting to find something that had been overlooked that would explain the disagreement. There was not any way to explain the data other than as interpreted and accepted by the science community. If you think you have an idea that hasn't been thought of feel free to share it. I can assure you that it is not original. Others have already been down that path and have failed to come up with any possible explanation that could be made to work. I am not limiting this to plausible explanations supported by evidence either. There are no viable unevidenced scenarios - free to be completely imaginary and ad hoc - that can make sense of the data other than the interpretation put on it by the science community.

Personal experiences are not the road to progress in accumulating knowledge as a species. However it is the path necessary for con artists to ply their trade and there is plenty of historical evidence left on record that Joseph was in the habit of conning others in order to get by in life both before the establishment of the church and after as with the book of Abraham. If you feel that god enjoys using the worst that society has to offer to build up his kingdom then feel free to get all goosebumply and read into this evidence that Joseph was a prophet. I'll go with the rather mundane and obvious conclusion to be drawn from his treasure hunting - declaring that the blood of a sheep had to be sacrificed to appease the guardian spirits over the treasures, which mutton found its way unto his dinner plate - that he was a simple con artist. He bedded his own adopted daughters and men's wives that were sent away first on missions. There is even evidence he was guilty of murder.

I remember the excitement as if it were yesterday that a prominent convert had a dream and was told some very unique teachings by which he would recognize the truth that matched the missionary discussions exactly. A decade later he was in prison for tax evasion for his scheme that resulted in many members losing their life savings to the government after first having payed him a $10K fee for the privilege of his trust estate plan with free legal representation should they be hassled by Uncle Sam. He had made up the conversion story to dupe a returned missionary who had a large number of church connections. He later died of a heart attack which of course was interpreted to be evidence of the judgment of god by church members rather than the simple result of over eating and never exercising.

Yes the first ordinance and principle of the gospel is faith for a reason, that reason being Joseph was about to receive revelations that directed the members to build him places to live and gave him unlimited power without oversight to direct the membership of the church however he chose. Yes when you contemplate the idea of living beyond the grave with someone you love for all eternity to share in all that a putative god has and enjoys that is a rather grandiose idea and the mind will respond with feelings of elation at the thought. Doesn't make it any more real than Santa was as a child however. Faith was the first principle of Santa as well. Kindly parents hooked you into the belief to make you feel an ecstasy only children are capable of experiencing. Adults get hooked by cons for other reasons or purposes later in life.

[_bomgeography]

You guys go around trying to destroy people's faith. But your faith in atheism is just that faith.

I personally have faith in the DNA distribution of x that disproves the current Bering (barren) ice bridge theory and the dating of haplo group x
Haplo group x is from the Middle East not Asia. That is a proven fact.

[_bomgeography]

You guys need to have faith in your atheism that nothing happens after death. To be wrong about this will have consequences after death.