Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

[_cwald]

Yes. That entire post needs to be saved.

I loved it. Very entertaining. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about edit it out personally. It's why I frequent this place.

[_Jersey Girl]

Let's try this one, WD.

I question this. I am not a female, so I could be wrong, and I don't mean to speak for anybody else. But I've had so many discussions along these lines with women, my wife, countless others, and have constantly been corrected, told about the huge differences between male and female sexuality. My natural instinct, as a male, is to assume that a girl would experience attraction in a very physical way, but I've been told the female experience is actually very different from this. It's more emotional in nature.

That is largely the case and what you're referring to is the bonding nature of human sexuality. I could make gender distinctions and someone would likely beat me over the head for it, but basically, it has to do with our biological make up as male and female. Still, this isn't an either or proposition. Both genders have the capacity to experience both emotional bonding and physical satisfaction in our sexual experiences.

It's not uncommon for women to get married having never masturbated a single time in their life... they literally never had the urge to do so.

Children engage in masturbatory activity throughout their early childhood years.

And when it comes to lesbians, a lot of those relationships are completely sexless in nature. Never sex, just a purely emotional companionship thing. Also very common. We could get into a whole men vs. women debate here. Just look at the "casual encounters" area of craigslist and compare the w4m, m4w, m4m, and w4m sections with each other. Completely different behavior patterns. Look at the volume of posts in each section, the contents of said posts, etc. So different.

That's the biological differences between genders again. You're not wrong about that, but you should leave yourself open to consider individuality.

At the immature age of 12 it seems to me that a kid could easily confuse an emotional attraction to certain people as being something else... especially in an environment where they are constantly being bombarded with very advanced sexual concepts.

I don't disagree with this.

The idea of a 12 year old "knowing" they are gay is laughable to me.

I'd like to know why you think that's laughable.

Nonsense. In terms of the science too, my understanding is that for men a kind of gay gene has been found. For women though, not so much. The science of homosexuality is completely different for men vs. women.

I'm not aware of the discover of a male gay gene. I'll share with you what I believe to be true. I did so earlier in the thread. I believe that sexual identity is or can be, influenced by both nature and nurture.

Science doesn't have a solid answer as to what determines our sexual identity. Current research (so far as I am aware) indicates that sexual identity is determined, in part, by

1) the influence of prenatal hormones on the developing fetus and

2) environmental factors. I'll address environmental factors in a moment because you opened the door for me in your below.

How it develops, how it manifests, all of it, not comparable.

And not well understood.

You can't compare your adolescent male puberty experience with this 12 year old girl who is supposedly gay... because that isn't how it works. As I understand it, a gay boy could start to have a physical attraction to men starting around that 12-14 age range. Not so much for girls though.

Why do you think that?

A girl having those kinds of strong physical feelings would be a sign of abuse, like being molested by a father or other male figure, something along those lines.

Right here is where you go off track and why I want to address environmental factors. I'm going to keep this within the confines of the same sex attraction topic that we're discussing.

A child, any child no matter their gender, molested or sexual assaulted by a same sex offender, has the potential to become sexually oriented towards members of the same sex and this is why I discuss both biological and environmental factors. This is exactly what I mean by an environmental influence.

In your above, you make no distinction between the hypothetical molested girl being homosexual or heterosexual. In order for your entire premise to work contextually, you have to include the fact that early sexual experiences do provide potential influence on sexual orientation.

I have a lot to learn so I'm open to being wrong about all of this, but lots of red flags. I don't believe this girl can know she's gay at this stage in her life. I just don't. I don't believe she's feeling strong sexual urges at all. If she is, something is wrong. And the reaction to that should not be putting your daughter all over the internet.

A 12 year old girl who feels strong sexual urges isn't a red flag. It's a sign of a healthy developing child.

This is why I encourage you to visit your nearby university or community college and drop in to their ECE, psych or medical departments and honest to god, ask to check out a book on child or human development. BYU has one of the best child development lab schools in the country and is used as an example of best practice and academic authority in our ECE texts.

[_Jersey Girl]

WD,

The girl age 12 who has strong sexual urges, I would have edited my post but someone is probably reading it as I type this. Keep in mind that girls tend to enter puberty well in advance of their male peers. That's one of the reasons that this shouldn't be a red flag, a surprise, or unbelievable to you.

[_Lemmie]

Right. Anecdotal evidence, second hand, from several of Water Dog's "social circle," their "diplomas in such areas" vouched for by the person presenting them as experts.

Well, this is a good place to learn how to do better, Water Dog.

Friendly discussion, Lemmie. Not a dissertation.

Then why bring up your diploma holding friends and your assessment of their expertise?

In a friendly discussion here, you will be asked to support your statements of fact, especially if your statements of fact are couched in stereotypical, misogynistic, homophobic terms.

[_Jersey Girl]

You're simply inserting your theories again Dog. The mom has short hair. Dog's response - she's a butch lesbian. Savannah confided in her mom about being attracted to girls. Dog's response - the butch mom groomed her into a lesbian.

Haha. Dude, it goes so beyond that. I'm sorry, but no. Come on. We're adults. Let's be honest.

There is a huge difference between this



and this



a normal girly heterosexual LDS woman (recently exmo or not) does not go for the bull look. period. even chicks in biker gangs don't go for this look. haha. this isn't about short hair, she has a whole thing going on.

Can both images be that of homosexual females?

[_Lemmie]

If you figure it out let me know. Something I said really got under the skin of the naggy harridan crowd, which apparently includes Chap.

noun: harridan; plural noun: harridans

a strict, bossy, or belligerent old woman.

And WaterDog-Schryver strikes again with his sexist, misogynistic attitude.

[_Chap]

Can both images be that of homosexual females?

Yup. Or heterosexual too, for that matter. Or anything they feel like being.

If anyone is in doubt about that (and I am sure Jersey Girl herself is not), I shudder to think of how they have wasted their brief flicker of consciousness on this interesting little planet.

And no, cussing a lot on Terrestrial (though an incredibly daring and manly act, as we must all acknowledge) does not go anywhere near compensating for the gap in such a person's life experience.

[_Lemmie]

A 12 year old girl hasn't mastered even looking in the mirror yet, basic self esteem and confidence issues, much less deciding she's gay. High school is hell for girls, and at 12 she isn't even there yet! She has barely started her journey of self discovery and already she's decided she's gay? I'm sorry, but no.

Your opinion, right? 12 year olds are snapchatting eyeroll emojis the world over.

Can both images be that of homosexual females?

Yup. Or heterosexual too, for that matter. Or anything they feel like being.

If anyone is in doubt about that (and I am sure Jersey Girl herself is not), I shudder to think of how they have wasted their brief flicker of consciousness on this interesting little planet.

And no, cussing a lot on Terrestrial (though an incredibly daring and manly act, as we must all acknowledge) does not go anywhere near compensating for the gap in such a person's life experience.

Nor does the misogyny, sexism, and homophobia.

[_Jersey Girl]

I was waiting for you to reply. After this, I need to leave for a bit and work on a project. I'll just reply as I go through your post. Easier that way.

On the whole I'd say I agree with all that and we really aren't far apart. The only real point of disagreement is the age I think. I'm highly skeptical of a 12 year old, particularly a girl (because of differences in emotional vs. physical interpretation of feelings), "knowing" she's gay.

Are you forgetting that girls enter puberty before their male counterparts? Are you ignoring the fact that sexual response is not simply a matter of emotional vs physical, but both?

I'm going to use stereotypes for a moment to make my case.

On this thread, you are in one breath (it seems) resorting to the masculinized stereotype to represent both the male and female homosexual and yet, you are appealing to gender differences in your assertions regarding whether or not a girl (of any sexual orientation) can experience both emotional and sexual responses at age 12.

That doesn't make logical sense. Think more about that.

In the next virtual breath, you are entirely ignoring both feminized male and female persons.

When you think about that, think about the influence of prenatal hormones on the developing fetus as well as environmental factors I outlined regarding early same sex experiences.

This isn't easy. It's very complex. Think more about what you are relying on for indications of early human sexuality.

I'm not saying it isn't "possible," what I'm saying is that it's highly subjective, open to misinterpretation, etc., and given how little we know (which we agree on), I am biased towards a cautious approach.

Using homophobic slurs isn't demonstrative of bias towards a cautious approach. I'm just putting that out there.

I feel it's irresponsible for a parent, a therapist, or some other type of authority figure or adult, to pressure a child to make any kind of decision one way or the other.

There are appropriate ways to question children regarding their sexuality. All too often, and I agree with you here, adults ask leading questions to produce a possibly subconscious desired outcome on their part.

For example, had Savannah come to me and told me that she was gay. My first question to her would have been, "How do you know that?" And let her fully express herself without leading on my part. While I think that many or most young people age 12 are aware of their sexual orientation, I do think it's possible for them to suspect, feel confused, be susceptible to peer messages, and ultimately discover later that what they thought wasn't the case.

This is why we adults need to be careful. In Savannah's case, she is certain of who she is. Will she change her self identity at age oh, 15 or so? The truth is that she could. We don't know what her influences have been. In any case, I would like to see us as a community and as a society overall, treat these reports with sensitivity.

A 12 year old girl hasn't mastered even looking in the mirror yet, basic self esteem and confidence issues, much less deciding she's gay. High school is hell for girls, and at 12 she isn't even there yet!

I'd say middle school is the hell. But I am heavily biased on that regard.

She has barely started her journey of self discovery and already she's decided she's gay? I'm sorry, but no.

I'm going to say that she can know that she is gay and leave it at that.

I appreciate that some people, in their adult years, look back and say they "knew" at some age. I do not mean to pick a fight with these people and argue.

Welp. I have to go with most of us who are heterosexual knew at an early age. I have to allow for the fact and possibility that so does a young gay person.

My point is more about the sort of pressures we put on someone who's a kid right now today. I would strongly be against my young child getting up in F&T meeting and "coming out," having some huge public experience where she cements her identity going forward.

My one thought on this (and I do think you're right that some adults pick up that ball and start publicly running with it when they probably shouldn't) is that I don't know who decided that Savannah wanted to speak during F&T. Was it Savannah or her parents?

If it was Savannah, I would have personally discussed what I thought our church's attitudes were regarding gay persons, possible negative reception and if she still wanted to do it, by God, I'd be right there in the front row supporting my child's wishes.

I'm opposed to this just as I'm opposed to the way the church puts huge amounts of pressure on people to have these big spiritual experiences. Joseph Smith is having visions at 14, etc., so you need to pray and have some huge "grove experience" and "know" the church is true. If you don't "know" something is wrong with you. BS all of it.

I don't want to get into a big thing about the LDS church and how it teaches children and their parents. I do want to point out that the LDS church basically expects and/or requires (be honest) baptism at age 8 when a child is most vulnerable to authority and their natural tendency to conform at that age.

If I had a 12 year old girl who told me she was gay, I would hug her, and love her, and encourage her, but I'd also discourage her from growing up too fast. You've got a lot of time to figure things out, don't be in such a hurry. And if my daughter was being all boy crazy I'd say the same thing - no difference. You're 12, be a kid.

I like this!

:-)

[_Jersey Girl]

And no, cussing a lot on Terrestrial (though an incredibly daring and manly act, as we must all acknowledge) does not go anywhere near compensating for the gap in such a person's life experience.

Nor does the misogyny, sexism, and homophobia.

And that was the source of my inner conflict. Until Xeno made the call, I was faced with a choice of rising to the occasion on a more professional level and trying to inform or going with my natural instinct to zip tie a plastic bag over WD's head.