Bible verse by verse

[_huckelberry]

I would like to hear some sort of idea of what difference it would make to the value of Colossians whether it was written by Paul or some other first century Christian.

I am unsure if the author is Paul but I think that is just fine if it is not. I am glad to hear from more voices than just Paul. I like Paul , he has passion and a lively mind. He makes, or at least invites, people to think. Even so he is hardly the only gentile Christian spreading the faith about the Mediterranean.

I think sometimes Paul is seen to be more essential than I think he was.

[_Maksutov]

I would like to hear some sort of idea of what difference it would make to the value of Colossians whether it was written by Paul or some other first century Christian.

I am unsure if the author is Paul but I think that is just fine if it is not. I am glad to hear from more voices than just Paul. I like Paul , he has passion and a lively mind. He makes, or at least invites, people to think. Even so he is hardly the only gentile Christian spreading the faith about the Mediterranean.

I think sometimes Paul is seen to be more essential than I think he was.

I suspect that many believers have not considered the implications so I'm not sure if it would effect them or not. I believe moral people are going to be moral no matter what their books or leaders say. That's not where morality comes from.

Some believers are very dependent on authority, and authority must be clearly and even rigidly defined. Others see following Christ as something very different. And so we have so many different churches and different Christs, with different views of Paul as well. I don't think that's as important as, Has Christianity been a net positive for humanity? It probably depends on where and when you observe it.

[_huckelberry]

I would like to hear some sort of idea of what difference it would make to the value of Colossians whether it was written by Paul or some other first century Christian.

I suspect that many believers have not considered the implications so I'm not sure if it would effect them or not. I believe moral people are going to be moral no matter what their books or leaders say. That's not where morality comes from.

Some believers are very dependent on authority, and authority must be clearly and even rigidly defined. Others see following Christ as something very different. And so we have so many different churches and different Christs, with different views of Paul as well. I don't think that's as important as, Has Christianity been a net positive for humanity? It probably depends on where and when you observe it.

I suppose my question was first about what determines the books to actually be scripture. Was it the authority of the Catholic church which selected the New Testament? Maksukov, that question may not fit your interest but could fit other people.

I think the quality of thinking and the awareness of the writer gives it value and influence. The church gathered what were historically valuable and felt to be illuminating in a valuable way. I think the authors could have been any early Christian believers. Largely because of that I am not much troubled by uncertainty of authorship of say, Matthew or relatively late date for New Testament writing.

You ask a question which should underlie these concerns, that is have they had a positive or negative effect. I think you hit the nail on the head observing the answer changes with times places and aspects of history. I wish I had a sure fire screen to eliminate bad results and only nourish the positive. I feel sure that Christianity was started as a criticism renewal of Judism intending to do just that sort of screening. The result has not been very complete on that score. I think human nature generates or perpetuates the bad influences quite handily.

[_Maksutov]

I suspect that many believers have not considered the implications so I'm not sure if it would effect them or not. I believe moral people are going to be moral no matter what their books or leaders say. That's not where morality comes from.

Some believers are very dependent on authority, and authority must be clearly and even rigidly defined. Others see following Christ as something very different. And so we have so many different churches and different Christs, with different views of Paul as well. I don't think that's as important as, Has Christianity been a net positive for humanity? It probably depends on where and when you observe it.

I suppose my question was first about what determines the books to actually be scripture. Was it the authority of the Catholic church which selected the New Testament? Maksukov, that question may not fit your interest but could fit other people.

I think the quality of thinking and the awareness of the writer gives it value and influence. The church gathered what were historically valuable and felt to be illuminating in a valuable way. I think the authors could have been any early Christian believers. Largely because of that I am not much troubled by uncertainty of authorship of say, Matthew or relatively late date for New Testament writing.

You ask a question which should underlie these concerns, that is have they had a positive or negative effect. I think you hit the nail on the head observing the answer changes with times places and aspects of history. I wish I had a sure fire screen to eliminate bad results and only nourish the positive. I feel sure that Christianity was started as a criticism renewal of Judism intending to do just that sort of screening. The result has not been very complete on that score. I think human nature generates or perpetuates the bad influences quite handily.

I think all we can say for sure is there's not much we can say for sure. There was a lot of debate and discord as the Bible as we know it was being assembled. Some people won, some lost. Stuff stayed in, other stuff was thrown out. The victors wrote the history and usually weren't very fair. The debates didn't end there, even after a canon was established. The interpretations of those books had to be sorted out and, not so different from the Talmudists, the Christians spent centuries arguing about their own books and the nature of the trinity, angels, the sabbath, the understanding of the communion...more or less all the elements associated with Christianity. While this generated a lot of literature and other cultural artifacts, Christians are no closer today than they were 1700 years ago in finding a consensus. So while it has been a substantial enterprise, a generator of identity and activity, it's clearly a human phenomenon. Claims of divinity and the imposition of sanctity I see as instruments of power, not indications of truth or the influence of supreme or even superior beings.

[_LittleNipper]

I suppose my question was first about what determines the books to actually be scripture. Was it the authority of the Catholic church which selected the New Testament? Maksukov, that question may not fit your interest but could fit other people.

I think the quality of thinking and the awareness of the writer gives it value and influence. The church gathered what were historically valuable and felt to be illuminating in a valuable way. I think the authors could have been any early Christian believers. Largely because of that I am not much troubled by uncertainty of authorship of say, Matthew or relatively late date for New Testament writing.

You ask a question which should underlie these concerns, that is have they had a positive or negative effect. I think you hit the nail on the head observing the answer changes with times places and aspects of history. I wish I had a sure fire screen to eliminate bad results and only nourish the positive. I feel sure that Christianity was started as a criticism renewal of Judism intending to do just that sort of screening. The result has not been very complete on that score. I think human nature generates or perpetuates the bad influences quite handily.

I believe you will find this very helpful, honest, and clear in it appraisal of how the canonical books were established: http://www.anabaptists.org/history/howwegot.html

It should be noted that The persecution of Diocletian (302 A.D.), instead of bringing the destruction of New Testament writings demonstrated the Church's need to gather and assemble them. The pagan persecutors demanded that the Scriptures should be handed over to be burned. The Christians instead gathered and protected what they believed to be sacred. GOD always applies for good what others meant for evil.

[_LittleNipper]

I see no problem with Colossians. The letters were written to different people, at different times, regarding different issues, while Paul was undergoing different problems himself. These letters are blatantly obvious in their meaning. People are hard pressed to deny what is being said. So, the next step is to discredit the writings and in that way not feel ashamed or offended. In other words, they simply say, these works are not authentic and do not belong in the Bible. And then they can feel good about themselves through denial.

Oh really? So you know these scholars personally and can judge them and their morals without personal knowledge? Sounds like you just have a great imagination and need to dismiss people who are different from you.

Remember, Nipper, there are many many Christians who don't see the Bible as inerrant and don't accept all of its claimed provenance. Sorry, it's a fact. They are Christians too and the Bible belongs to them as much as you.

Let's be blunt. Where do these scholars attend church? Do they go every Sunday and also to prayer meetings, and Bible studies? Do they pray daily? There are many Bible "scholars" who are not believers. You need to reread the epistles that these Bible "scholars" want to disregard. These are very often the very same Bible "scholars" who wish to include the Gospel of Thomas and other such Gnostic books ---- I wonder why?

[_LittleNipper]

Colossians 3:1-25

So if you were raised along with the Messiah, then seek lofty things, where the Messiah is sitting at the right hand of God.

Focus your minds on spiritual things, not on earthly material things.

For you have died, and your life is hidden with the Messiah in God.

When the Messiah, who is our life, appears, then you too will appear with Him in glory!

Therefore, put to death the earthly parts of your nature — sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed --- a form of idolatry;

for it is because of these things that God’s anger is coming on those who disobey Him.

True enough, you used to practice these things in the life you once lived;

but now, put them all away — anger, exasperation, meanness, slander and obscene talk.

Never lie to one another; because you have peeled away the old self, with its behavior, 1

and have put on the new self, which is continually being renewed in fuller and fuller knowledge, closer and closer to the image of its Creator.

The new self allows no room for discriminating between Gentile and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, foreigner, savage, slave, free man; on the contrary, in all, the Messiah means everything.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, shroud yourselves with feelings of compassion and kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

Put up with one another; if anyone has a complaint against someone else, forgive him. Honestly, just as the Lord has forgiven you, so you must forgive.

Above all these, shroud yourselves with love, which glues everything together perfectly;

and let the peace which comes from the Messiah be your heart’s decision-maker, for this is why you were called to be part of a single Body. And be thankful —

allow the Word of the Messiah, in all its richness, live in you, as you teach and counsel each other in all wisdom, and as you sing songs, hymns and spirituals with gratitude to God in your hearts.

That is, everything you do or say, do in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.

Wives, subject yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting to the Lord.

Husbands, love your wives and don’t treat them rudely.

Children, listen to your parents in everything; for this please the Lord.

Dads, don’t irritate your children and make them resentful, or they will become discouraged.

Slaves, listen to your human masters in everything, not serving only when they observe you, to gain their favor, but single-heartedly, regarding the Lord.

Whatever work you do, give 100%, as those who are serving not only other people, but the Lord.

Remember that as your reward, you will receive inheritance from the Lord. You are slaving for the Lord --- the Messiah.

Don’t worry — whoever is doing wrong will be paid in kind for his wrong --- there is no favoritism shown.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 If, then, ye were raised with the Christ, the things above seek ye, where the Christ is, on the right hand of God seated,

2 the things above mind ye, not the things upon the earth,

3 for ye did die, and your life hath been hid with the Christ in God;

4 when the Christ -- our life -- may be manifested, then also we with him shall be manifested in glory.

5 Put to death, then, your members that [are] upon the earth -- whoredom, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and the covetousness, which is idolatry --

6 because of which things cometh the anger of God upon the sons of the disobedience,

7 in which also ye -- ye did walk once, when ye lived in them;

8 but now put off, even ye, the whole -- anger, wrath, malice, evil-speaking, filthy talking -- out of your mouth.

9 Lie not one to another, having put off the old man with his practices,

10 and having put on the new, which is renewed in regard to knowledge, after the image of Him who did create him;

11 where there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, servant, freeman -- but the all and in all -- Christ.

12 Put on, therefore, as choice ones of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humble-mindedness, meekness, long-suffering,

13 forbearing one another, and forgiving each other, if any one with any one may have a quarrel, as also the Christ did forgive you -- so also ye;

14 and above all these things, [have] love, which is a bond of the perfection,

15 and let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also ye were called in one body, and become thankful.

16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing each other, in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, in grace singing in your hearts to the Lord;

17 and all, whatever ye may do in word or in work, [do] all things in the name of the Lord Jesus -- giving thanks to the God and Father, through him.

18 The wives! be subject to your own husbands, as is fit in the Lord;

19 the husbands! love your wives, and be not bitter with them;

20 the children! obey the parents in all things, for this is well-pleasing to the Lord;

21 the fathers! vex not your children, lest they be discouraged.

22 The servants! obey in all things those who are masters according to the flesh, not in eye-service as men-pleasers, but in simplicity of heart, fearing God;

23 and all, whatever ye may do -- out of soul work -- as to the Lord, and not to men,

24 having known that from the Lord ye shall receive the recompense of the inheritance -- for the Lord Christ ye serve;

25 and he who is doing unrighteously shall receive what he did unrighteously, and there is no acceptance of persons.

[_Maksutov]

Let's be blunt. Where do these scholars attend church? Do they go every Sunday and also to prayer meetings, and Bible studies? Do they pray daily? There are many Bible "scholars" who are not believers. You need to reread the epistles that these Bible "scholars" want to disregard. These are very often the very same Bible "scholars" who wish to include the Gospel of Thomas and other such Gnostic books ---- I wonder why?

So you get to decide who is a Christian? There's a little bit more to Christian theology than Biblical inerrancy.

Why not judge scholars by scholarship rather than some random person's idea of doctrinal purity? And scholarship has to be judged by quality of research, including evidence, and the logic and comprehensiveness of its presentation. Not how often the scholar attends church, which is (Let's be blunt) something any moron can do.

[_LittleNipper]

Let's be blunt. Where do these scholars attend church? Do they go every Sunday and also to prayer meetings, and Bible studies? Do they pray daily? There are many Bible "scholars" who are not believers. You need to reread the epistles that these Bible "scholars" want to disregard. These are very often the very same Bible "scholars" who wish to include the Gospel of Thomas and other such Gnostic books ---- I wonder why?

So you get to decide who is a Christian? There's a little bit more to Christian theology than Biblical inerrancy.

Why not judge scholars by scholarship rather than some random person's idea of doctrinal purity? And scholarship has to be judged by quality of research, including evidence, and the logic and comprehensiveness of its presentation. Not how often the scholar attends church, which is (Let's be blunt) something any moron can do.

A ChristIAN is not someone who does not believe in Christ! Even a moron understands that much!

[_Maksutov]

So you get to decide who is a Christian? There's a little bit more to Christian theology than Biblical inerrancy.

Why not judge scholars by scholarship rather than some random person's idea of doctrinal purity? And scholarship has to be judged by quality of research, including evidence, and the logic and comprehensiveness of its presentation. Not how often the scholar attends church, which is (Let's be blunt) something any moron can do.

A ChristIAN is not someone who does not believe in Christ! Even a moron understands that much!

Believing in a particular letter alleged to be by Paul is not the same thing as believing in Christ. And, again, you're defining Christian as if you own the brand. Sorry, but you don't.