Maksutov wrote:And so which James wrote this, Nipper? Why should it be considered scriptural? There is little consensus on its authorship and it raises some serious theological issues.
Jesus had several brothers. So he is NOT James, the brother of John, and he is NOT James, the son of ALphaeus.
In fact, James, (the son of Mary and Joseph and, therefore, the half brother of Jesus), was originally a skeptic and did not believe that Jesus was God until AFTER Jesus' death and resurrection. But, then he accepted that Jesus was really God and he became a "believer," a Christian. Therefore, the James (mentioned by Paul in Galatians 1:19) is, indeed, the Lord's brother. But, he did not become an apostle until AFTER Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection from the dead.
James, the brother of Jesus, not only became a "believer" in Jesus, but he also became the "pastor" of the Church in Jerusalem and was an important and highly respected "leader" among Christians (Believers) at that time. And absolutely, while serving as Pastor and "leader" of the Church, one of the many things that James, the brother of Jesus, did was to write the New Testament Book (Letter) of James, the book which bow bears his name.
I imagine the brothers of Jesus were like the brothers of Joseph Smith. They knew he wasn't all that he claimed to be but went along with his shtick as long as it benefited them. That also explains why James finally "came to believe" in Jesus. He wanted to be part of a community where he would be one of the elect. No mystery or divinity there.
LittleNipper wrote:... In fact, James, (the son of Mary and Joseph and, therefore, the half brother of Jesus) ...
joseph was an old widower - at that time, when he married mary -, with adult children; among them james...
so the "half brother" issued by joseph's previous wife
Choyo Chagas is Chairman of the Big Four, the ruler of the planet from "The Bull's Hour" ( Russian: Час Быка), a social science fiction novel written by Soviet author and paleontologist Ivan Yefremov in 1968. Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.
Maksutov wrote:And so which James wrote this, Nipper? Why should it be considered scriptural? There is little consensus on its authorship and it raises some serious theological issues.
wouldn't raising questions be a good reason to consider it scripture?
Better reason than would be provided by knowing which James is the author I think.
huckelberry wrote:You believe that late tale? (constructed to fulfill the theological assumptions of later centuries)
i believe nothing about any religions/messiahs/prophets/scriptures
especially prophecies... (augury would be a better word)
in the crowd of believers i believe - play as if... - every word, as i don't like religious war
last week i took part ten days in a health centre
neither my wife nor i am adventist (they are...) i've cooperated, didn't oppose
you know, the ellen white bunch ("hysteria, epilepsy, catalepsy, and ecstasy")
Choyo Chagas is Chairman of the Big Four, the ruler of the planet from "The Bull's Hour" ( Russian: Час Быка), a social science fiction novel written by Soviet author and paleontologist Ivan Yefremov in 1968. Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.
Maksutov wrote:And so which James wrote this, Nipper? Why should it be considered scriptural? There is little consensus on its authorship and it raises some serious theological issues.
wouldn't raising questions be a good reason to consider it scripture?
Better reason than would be provided by knowing which James is the author I think.
Various apocrypha include all sorts of unusual, even incongruous teachings, accounts and elements that you don't find in the Bible we've come to know. That didn't help them to be included in the canon but may have precluded it. I think it's a matter of what you're accustomed to.
For me the issues raised by James have to do with the perpetual virginity of Mary, the nature of the Godhead, the reliability of the Gospel accounts, the implications of the de-emphasis of Jesus' family among the followers of Paul, etc.--issues that indicate political considerations and pragmatic influences upon the development, or accounts of development, of the early church. This is to be expected of a human enterprise and complies with the dynamics of other new religious movements we've seen throughout history.
LittleNipper wrote:... In fact, James, (the son of Mary and Joseph and, therefore, the half brother of Jesus) ...
joseph was an old widower - at that time, when he married mary -, with adult children; among them james...
so the "half brother" issued by joseph's previous wife
No, Joseph was a young carpenter who had likely been betrothed to Mary from childhood,as was often a Jewish custom at that time. He was even informed in a dream by the angel Gabriel not to have sex with Mary until after the birth of Jesus. Some Roman Catholics wish to create of Mary the Immaculata and a perpetual virgin --- neither of which is biblical.
What is causing all the quarrels and fighting among you? Isn’t it your desires battling inside you?
You want things and don’t have them. You murder, you are jealous, and you still can’t achieve them. So you fight and quarrel. The reason you don’t have is that you don’t pray!
Or you pray and don’t receive, because you pray with wrong motives, that are selfish.
You unfaithful wives! Don’t you realize that loving the world is hating God? Whoever chooses to be the world’s friend makes himself God’s enemy!
Or do you imagine the Scripture speaks for nothing when it reveals that there is a spirit in us which longs to envy?
But the grace He gives is greater, which is why it says, “God opposes the arrogant, but to the humble He provides grace.”
So, submit to God.additionally. take a stand against the Adversary, and he will run away from you.
Come close to God, and he will come close to you. Wash your hands, sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded people!
Wail, mourn, cry! Let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy into gloom!
Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will boost you up.
Brethern, stop speaking against each other! Whoever speaks against a fellow believer or judges a believer is speaking against the Law and judging it. And if you judge the Law, you are not a doer of what Law reveals, but its judge.
There is but one Giver of Law; He is also the Judge, with the power to deliver and to destroy. Who do you think you are, judging your fellow human believer?
Hear me, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go here or there, stay there a year trading and make money”!
You don’t even know if you will live to see tomorrow! For all you are is a mist that appears for a very short time and then vanishes.
Instead, you should say, “If Lord wishes it to happen, we will live” to do this or that.
But as it is, in your selfish arrogance you boast. All such boasting is evil.
So then, anyone who understands the right thing to do and fails to do it is committing sin.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 Whence [are] wars and fightings among you? not thence -- out of your passions, that are as soldiers in your members?
2 ye desire, and ye have not; ye murder, and are zealous, and are not able to attain; ye fight and war, and ye have not, because of your not asking;
3 ye ask, and ye receive not, because evilly ye ask, that in your pleasures ye may spend [it].
4 Adulterers and adulteresses! have ye not known that friendship of the world is enmity with God? whoever, then, may counsel to be a friend of the world, an enemy of God he is set.
5 Do ye think that emptily the Writing saith, `To envy earnestly desireth the spirit that did dwell in us,'
6 and greater grace he doth give, wherefore he saith, `God against proud ones doth set Himself up, and to lowly ones He doth give grace?'
7 be subject, then, to God; stand up against the devil, and he will flee from you;
8 draw nigh to God, and He will draw nigh to you; cleanse hands, ye sinners! and purify hearts, ye two-souled!
9 be exceeding afflicted, and mourn, and weep, let your laughter to mourning be turned, and the joy to heaviness;
10 be made low before the Lord, and He shall exalt you.
11 Speak not one against another, brethren; he who is speaking against a brother, and is judging his brother, doth speak against law, and doth judge law, and if law thou dost judge, thou art not a doer of law but a judge;
12 one is the lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy; thou -- who art thou that dost judge the other?
13 Go, now, ye who are saying, `To-day and to-morrow we will go on to such a city, and will pass there one year, and traffic, and make gain;'
14 who do not know the thing of the morrow; for what is your life? for it is a vapour that is appearing for a little, and then is vanishing;
15 instead of your saying, `If the Lord may will, we shall live, and do this or that;'
16 and now ye glory in your pride; all such glorying is evil;
17 to him, then, knowing to do good, and not doing, sin it is to him.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
Choyo Chagas wrote:joseph was an old widower - at that time, when he married mary -, with adult children; among them james...
so the "half brother" issued by joseph's previous wife
No, Joseph was a young carpenter who had likely been betrothed to Mary from childhood,as was often a Jewish custom at that time. He was even informed in a dream by the angel Gabriel not to have sex with Mary until after the birth of Jesus. Some Roman Catholics wish to create of Mary the Immaculata and a perpetual virgin --- neither of which is biblical.
Nipper, the view you present here seems entirely reasonable to me. I do not know of any contradictory evidence. However I do notice that the Bible and first century writings do not provide us with information about James life and death and do not explain who his mother was. We have nothing about what happened to Joseph, what happened to Mary or the general story and fate of Jesus's family.
I think those lost stories are what is puzzling Maksutov. I could on the other hand be asking him just what question is puzzling him. That the Bible and church were put together by humans is beyond question.
