Choyo Chagas wrote:joseph was an old widower - at that time, when he married mary -, with adult children; among them james...
LittleNipper wrote: No, Joseph was a young carpenter who had likely been ...
huckelberry wrote:... However I do notice that the Bible and first century writings do not provide us with information about James life and death and do not explain who his mother was. We have nothing about what happened to Joseph, what happened to Mary or the general story and fate of Jesus's family.
at this point my words are against littlenipper's ones and the Bible remains silent about
huckelberry wrote:I think those lost stories are what is puzzling Maksutov. I could on the other hand be asking him just what question is puzzling him.
maksutov
Choyo Chagas is Chairman of the Big Four, the ruler of the planet from "The Bull's Hour" ( Russian: Час Быка), a social science fiction novel written by Soviet author and paleontologist Ivan Yefremov in 1968. Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.
We do know that Mary was placed in the care of John at the cross. The Bible inevitably concerns Christ and HIS plan of SALVATION! I believe that one day believers may be introduced to Mary and Joseph and the believer will be able to ask all sorts of things... At least for a season.
What follows is a word for the rich: cry and mourn over the hardships coming at you!
Your riches have been lost, and your clothes are moth eaten;
your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will consume your flesh like fire! This is the testimony --- and see you have been storing up wealth!
Now hear this! The wages you have fraudulently withheld from the workers who mowed your fields are a testimony against you, and the outcries of those who harvested have reached the ears of the Lord of His Sabbath day.
You have led a life of luxury and self-indulgence now on earth — in a time of slaughter, you have gone on eating to your heart’s content.
You have condemned and murdered the innocent; they could not stop you.
So, brethren, patiently wait before the Lord returns. See how the farmer waits for the precious “fruit of the earth” — he is patient over it until it receives the fall and spring rains.
You also, be patient; keep up your courage; for the Lord’s return grows closer.
Don’t grumble against one another, brothers, so that you won’t come under condemnation. Observe! the Judge is standing by the door!
As an example of suffering mistreatment and being patient, brethren, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord.
Look, we regard those who persevered as blessed. You have heard of the perseverance of Job, and you know what the purpose of the Lord was, that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.
A to top it off, brethren, stop swearing oaths — not “By heaven,” not “By the earth,” and not by any other formula; rather, let your “Yes” be simply “Yes” and your “No” simply “No,” so that you won’t fall under condemnation.
Is someone among you in trouble? He should pray. Is someone feeling good? He should sing songs of praise.
Is someone among you ill? He should call for the elders of the congregation. They will pray over him and rub olive oil on him in the name of the Lord.
The prayer offered with trust will heal the one who is ill — the Lord will restore his health; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
So, openly acknowledge your sins to one another, and pray for each other, so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and works.
Elijah was only a human being like us; yet he prayed fervently that it wouldn't rain, and no rain fell on the Land for 3 years and 6 months.
Then he prayed again, and sky let lose, and the Land produced its crops.
My brethren, if one of you strays from the truth, and someone brings him back,
you should realize that whoever diverts a sinner from his wandering path will save him from death and cover many sins.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 Go, now, ye rich! weep, howling over your miseries that are coming upon [you];
2 your riches have rotted, and your garments have become moth-eaten;
3 your gold and silver have rotted, and the rust of them for a testimony shall be to you, and shall eat your flesh as fire. Ye made treasure in the last days!
4 lo, the reward of the workmen, of those who in-gathered your fields, which hath been fraudulently kept back by you -- doth cry out, and the exclamations of those who did reap into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth have entered;
5 ye did live in luxury upon the earth, and were wanton; ye did nourish your hearts, as in a day of slaughter;
6 ye did condemn -- ye did murder the righteous one, he doth not resist you.
7 Be patient, then, brethren, till the presence of the Lord; lo, the husbandman doth expect the precious fruit of the earth, being patient for it, till he may receive rain -- early and latter;
8 be patient, ye also; establish your hearts, because the presence of the Lord hath drawn nigh;
9 murmur not against one another, brethren, that ye may not be condemned; lo, the Judge before the door hath stood.
10 An example take ye of the suffering of evil, my brethren, and of the patience, the prophets who did speak in the name of the Lord;
11 lo, we call happy those who are enduring; the endurance of Job ye heard of, and the end of the Lord ye have seen, that very compassionate is the Lord, and pitying.
12 And before all things, my brethren, do not swear, neither by the heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath, and let your Yes be Yes, and the No, No; that under judgment ye may not fall.
13 Doth any one suffer evil among you? let him pray; is any of good cheer? let him sing psalms;
14 is any infirm among you? let him call for the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, having anointed him with oil, in the name of the Lord,
15 and the prayer of the faith shall save the distressed one, and the Lord shall raise him up, and if sins he may have committed, they shall be forgiven to him.
16 Be confessing to one another the trespasses, and be praying for one another, that ye may be healed; very strong is a working supplication of a righteous man;
17 Elijah was a man like affected as we, and with prayer he did pray -- not to rain, and it did not rain upon the land three years and six months;
18 and again he did pray, and the heaven did give rain, and the land did bring forth her fruit.
19 Brethren, if any among you may go astray from the truth, and any one may turn him back,
20 let him know that he who did turn back a sinner from the straying of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.
huckelberry wrote: Nipper, the view you present here seems entirely reasonable to me. I do not know of any contradictory evidence. However I do notice that the Bible and first century writings do not provide us with information about James life and death and do not explain who his mother was. We have nothing about what happened to Joseph, what happened to Mary or the general story and fate of Jesus's family.
I think those lost stories are what is puzzling Maksutov. I could on the other hand be asking him just what question is puzzling him. That the Bible and church were put together by humans is beyond question.
Let's face it, the pseudepigraphical and apocryphal literature is vast and the actual critical/analystical contemporary literature (like the writings of Celsus) have been systematically eliminated. Out of that chaotic abundance of material came political and otherwise worldly decisions about what the canon and the doctrine would be. What's left is a very narrow and rather arbitrary selection of writings and a set of doctrines that failed to resolve paradoxes but often sacralized them. Their lack of cohesion and abundance of contradictions and absurdities is the major cause of the sectarian division and conflict of the last 2,000+ years.
huckelberry wrote: Nipper, the view you present here seems entirely reasonable to me. I do not know of any contradictory evidence. However I do notice that the Bible and first century writings do not provide us with information about James life and death and do not explain who his mother was. We have nothing about what happened to Joseph, what happened to Mary or the general story and fate of Jesus's family.
I think those lost stories are what is puzzling Maksutov. I could on the other hand be asking him just what question is puzzling him. That the Bible and church were put together by humans is beyond question.
Let's face it, the pseudepigraphical and apocryphal literature is vast and the actual critical/analystical contemporary literature (like the writings of Celsus) have been systematically eliminated. Out of that chaotic abundance of material came political and otherwise worldly decisions about what the canon and the doctrine would be. What's left is a very narrow and rather arbitrary selection of writings and a set of doctrines that failed to resolve paradoxes but often sacralized them. Their lack of cohesion and abundance of contradictions and absurdities is the major cause of the sectarian division and conflict of the last 2,000+ years.
Christ gave full credibility to the Old Testament Canon which was already fully established when Jesus taught in the Temple (without the apocrypha. The Roman Catholic Pope with Jerome's Vulgate would incorporate that into their Latin version). So that only leaves the New Testament (If you believe in Jesus). Jesus selected His Apostles, and they were taught by Him, and were told by Him that the Holy Spirit would remind them of His teachings when He was gone. The New Testament was either written by those who witnessed Jesus or those who wrote what an Apostle told/taught them. Everything can in turn be compared to the Old Testament canon for prophetic verification or what you like to call circle reasoning. However, the Bible does define itself.
To: God’s selected people, living as aliens of the dispersal — in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, the province of Asia, Bithynia and —
selected in accordance to the foreknowing of God the Father and set apart by the Spirit for obeying Jesus the Messiah and for spattering with His blood:
Grace and peace be yours to the fullest extent.
Praised be God, Father of our Lord Jesus the Messiah, who, in keeping with His great mercy, has caused us, through the resurrection of Jesus the Messiah from the dead, to be born again to a living hope,
to an inheritance that cannot decay, spoil or fade, safely secure for you in heaven.
Meanwhile, through trusting, you are being protected by God’s power for a deliverance ready to be revealed at the Last Time.
Rejoice in this, even though for a little while you may have to experience grief in various trials.
Even gold is tested for genuineness by fire. The purpose of these trials is so that your trust’s genuineness, which is far more valuable than perishable gold, will be judged worthy of praise, glory and honor at the revealing of Yeshua the Messiah.
Without having seen Him, you love Him. Without seeing Him now, but trusting in Him, you continue to be full of joy that is astounding beyond words.
And you are receiving what your trust is aiming at, specifically, your deliverance.
The prophets, who prophesied concerning this gift of deliverance that was meant for you, pondered and inquired diligently about it.
They were trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of the Messiah in them was referring in predicting the Messiah’s sufferings and the glorious things to follow.
It was revealed to them that their service when they spoke about these things was not for their own benefit, but for yours. And these same things have now been proclaimed to you by those who communicated the Good Message to you through the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things!
Therefore, get your minds ready for work, keep yourselves under control, and fix your hopes fully on the gift you will receive when Jesus the Messiah is revealed.
As people who obey God, do not let yourselves be shaped by the evil desires you used to have when you were still nonbelievers.
On the contrary, following the Holy One who called you, become holy yourselves in your entire way of life;
since the Law says, “You are to be holy because I'm holy.”
Also, if you are addressing as Father the one who judges impartially according to each person’s actions, you should live out your temporary stay on earth fearfully.
You should be aware that the ransom paid to free you from the worthless way of life which your fathers passed on to you did not consist of anything perishable like silver or gold;
quite the opposite, it was the costly bloody sacrificial death of the Messiah, as of a lamb without defect or spot.
God knew Him before the founding of the universe, but revealed Him in the last time for your sakes.
Through Him you trust in God, who raised Jesus from the dead and gave Him glory; so that your trust and hope are in God.
Now that you have purified yourselves through obeying the truth, so that you have a sincere love for your brethren, love each other deeply, with all your heart.
You have been born again not from some seed that will rot, but from one that cannot decay, through the living Word of God that lasts forever.
For all humanity is like grass, all its glory is like a wildflower — the grass withers, and the flower drops;
Yet the Word of the Lord lasts for an eternity. In truth, this Word is the Good News which has been proclaimed to you.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied!
3 Blessed [is] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to the abundance of His kindness did beget us again to a living hope, through the rising again of Jesus Christ out of the dead,
4 to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and unfading, reserved in the heavens for you,
5 who, in the power of God are being guarded, through faith, unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time,
6 in which ye are glad, a little now, if it be necessary, being made to sorrow in manifold trials,
7 that the proof of your faith -- much more precious than of gold that is perishing, and through fire being approved -- may be found to praise, and honour, and glory, in the revelation of Jesus Christ,
8 whom, not having seen, ye love, in whom, now not seeing and believing, ye are glad with joy unspeakable and glorified,
9 receiving the end of your faith -- salvation of souls;
10 concerning which salvation seek out and search out did prophets who concerning the grace toward you did prophecy,
11 searching in regard to what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ that was in them was manifesting, testifying beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory after these,
12 to whom it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to us they were ministering these, which now were told to you (through those who did proclaim good news to you,) in the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, to which things messengers do desire to bend looking.
13 Wherefore having girded up the loins of your mind, being sober, hope perfectly upon the grace that is being brought to you in the revelation of Jesus Christ,
14 as obedient children, not fashioning yourselves to the former desires in your ignorance,
15 but according as He who did call you [is] holy, ye also, become holy in all behaviour,
16 because it hath been written, `Become ye holy, because I am holy;'
17 and if on the Father ye do call, who without acceptance of persons is judging according to the work of each, in fear the time of your sojourn pass ye,
18 having known that, not with corruptible things -- silver or gold -- were ye redeemed from your foolish behaviour delivered by fathers,
19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted -- Christ's --
20 foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,
21 who through him do believe in God, who did raise out of the dead, and glory to him did give, so that your faith and hope may be in God.
22 Your souls having purified in the obedience of the truth through the Spirit to brotherly love unfeigned, out of a pure heart one another love ye earnestly,
23 being begotten again, not out of seed corruptible, but incorruptible, through a word of God -- living and remaining -- to the age;
24 because all flesh [is] as grass, and all glory of man as flower of grass; wither did the grass, and the flower of it fell away,
25 and the saying of the Lord doth remain -- to the age; and this is the saying that was proclaimed good news to you.
Maksutov wrote: Let's face it, the pseudepigraphical and apocryphal literature is vast and the actual critical/analystical contemporary literature (like the writings of Celsus) have been systematically eliminated. Out of that chaotic abundance of material came political and otherwise worldly decisions about what the canon and the doctrine would be. What's left is a very narrow and rather arbitrary selection of writings and a set of doctrines that failed to resolve paradoxes but often sacralized them. Their lack of cohesion and abundance of contradictions and absurdities is the major cause of the sectarian division and conflict of the last 2,000+ years.
Christ gave full credibility to the Old Testament Canon which was already fully established when Jesus taught in the Temple (without the apocrypha. The Roman Catholic Pope with Jerome's Vulgate would incorporate that into their Latin version). So that only leaves the New Testament (If you believe in Jesus). Jesus selected His Apostles, and they were taught by Him, and were told by Him that the Holy Spirit would remind them of His teachings when He was gone. The New Testament was either written by those who witnessed Jesus or those who wrote what an Apostle told/taught them. Everything can in turn be compared to the Old Testament canon for prophetic verification or what you like to call circle reasoning. However, the Bible does define itself.
The Bible defining itself is supremely illogical and leads you to worship of the Bible. Circular reasoning and speculation are bad thinking. And the fruits of this disorderly mess? Two thousand years of war and genocide. The events have unfolded just as they would if Jesus were a mortal man whose story was co-opted and deployed by a vast militant empire to assist in pacifying its conquests and consolidating power. That is the story that makes the most sense and has the most evidence.
LittleNipper wrote:Christ gave full credibility to the Old Testament Canon which was already fully established when Jesus taught in the Temple (without the apocrypha. The Roman Catholic Pope with Jerome's Vulgate would incorporate that into their Latin version). So that only leaves the New Testament (If you believe in Jesus). Jesus selected His Apostles, and they were taught by Him, and were told by Him that the Holy Spirit would remind them of His teachings when He was gone. The New Testament was either written by those who witnessed Jesus or those who wrote what an Apostle told/taught them. Everything can in turn be compared to the Old Testament canon for prophetic verification or what you like to call circle reasoning. However, the Bible does define itself.
The Bible defining itself is supremely illogical and leads you to worship of the Bible. Circular reasoning and speculation are bad thinking. And the fruits of this disorderly mess? Two thousand years of war and genocide. The events have unfolded just as they would if Jesus were a mortal man whose story was co-opted and deployed by a vast militant empire to assist in pacifying its conquests and consolidating power. That is the story that makes the most sense and has the most evidence.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with GOD and the Word was God ----- and the Word became flesh and dwelt among men. I hold the Word of God as the only instruction manual from GOD. If I want to hear what God has to say, all I have to do is prayerfully read the Bible. The only logical reason anyone would want to annihilate the Jews is to destroy biblical prophecy. No Jews --- no Jesus. No Jews no rebuilding of their Temple. No rebuilding of the Temple ---- no return of Christ. Satan would be VERY happy!
Last edited by Guest on Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.
LittleNipper wrote: I hold the Word of God as the only instruction manual from GOD. If I want to hear what God has to say, all I have to do is prayerfully read the Bible.
did you read ANY other books written in the last two - three? - thousand years? i doubt...
LittleNipper wrote:Satan is not happy!
the satan is happy... sorry for i am saying it
1. you did mention him/her/its without definite article and with uppercase initial - as believers are addressing god/gods. is one your gods the satan?
2. there are hardcore believers - like you - -- who didn't read; is there anything written in the last three thousand years you have read? -- if they (you) did read then doesn't understand -- if they (you) did understand then doesn't believe -- if they (you) did tend to understand then dismiss by faith
the satan likes you; his/her/its "enemies" are matched he/she/it won by default - as no real opposes do exist; you have no real respects, sorry...
only Bible, Bible, Bible, babble
your only excuse is that no satan exists
Choyo Chagas is Chairman of the Big Four, the ruler of the planet from "The Bull's Hour" ( Russian: Час Быка), a social science fiction novel written by Soviet author and paleontologist Ivan Yefremov in 1968. Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.
