No Trump defenders left ...?

[_EAllusion]

Since this is a Mormon themed message board, I'd like to note that LDS apologists love to respond to single lines or instances of evidence because their apologetic replies then don't have to worry about being mutually consistent with one another or deal with the cumulative improbability they create.

[_ajax18]

Since this is a Mormon themed message board, I'd like to note that LDS apologists love to respond to single lines or instances of evidence because their apologetic replies then don't have to worry about being mutually consistent with one another or deal with the cumulative improbability they create.

I'd really be interested in hearing your history and views on the LDS church. Do you have a blog?

[_Maksutov]

Since this is a Mormon themed message board, I'd like to note that LDS apologists love to respond to single lines or instances of evidence because their apologetic replies then don't have to worry about being mutually consistent with one another or deal with the cumulative improbability they create.

Astute observation.

It's the same tactic that's used by creationists and climate change deniers.

[_Markk]

This is how it works with these guys. They can't engage in a good faith discussion, even though I just gave him an opportunity. Nope. He wants me to literally repeat whatever nugget he doesn't think exists.

All Markk had to do was type in the the MormonDiscussions.com search engine:

Butina

AND THIS WOULD'VE COME UP:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50576&p=1159913&hilit=butina#p1159913

After scrolling past our conversation from this thread, a mere four posts, Markk would've seen the first thread titled "Trump Scandal #3745". Had he had the intellectual curiosity of a muppet he would've clicked on it and this would've popped up:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50750&p=1161662&hilit=butina#p1161662

And then to his shame he would've seen this (note, I said seen, because like his dopey counterparts on this forum he doesn't actually read anything):

viewtopic.php?p=1161662#p1161662

And then after reading maybe, just maybe he's go back and read through all the Butin stuff that was posted, or perhaps he would've noticed the words 'money laundering' and typed that into the MormonDiscussions.com search engine which would've resulted in this:

search.php?keywords=money+laundering&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

And perhaps a quick scan down the list this might've caught his eye:

viewtopic.php?p=1160944#p1160944

He's read the comment, perhaps the thread, and then he would've come back to the comment and read some of the highly sourced articles making their argument.

And the poster in question, after spending a mere lunch break perusing this forum's treasure trove of information now would've felt a surge of heat around his neck, a physical manifestation of shame, that he'd shown is dumb ass once again as nothing more than a Trump-balls-gargling ____ who for a moment thought, really thought, that he was clever.

- Doc

In Your words...Your "smocking gun" I assume a typo of "smoking."

On October 4, 2016. U.S. Persom 1 (Butina) sent an email to an acquaintance. The email covered a number of topics. Within the email, U.S. Person 1 stated, "unrelated to specific presidential campaigns, I've been involved in securing a VERY private line of communication between the Kremlin and key POLITICAL PARTY 1 leaders through, of all conduits, the [GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATION.].

How was Trump involved here? It reads "unrelated to specific presidential campaigns" And given in the same Affidavit Butina is playing for who ever wins...and Hillary was by far the projected winner.


Butina meet with Obama officials...per wiki..

Obama administration officials
In 2015, Torshin, then the Russian Central Bank deputy governor, and Butina met the Treasury undersecretary for international affairs, Nathan Sheets, to discuss U.S.-Russian economic relations.[34] Separately, they also met with a Federal Reserve vice chairman, Stanley Fischer and with a State Department official.[34][35][36]

Does this mean that both Trump and Obama were colluding with Putin by your logic? What exactly did Trump do with Butina that put him in the White House? I read your "Smoking Gun" and I am not quite sure what it proves?

In The FBI Affidavit you quoted from, The Agent quotes Butina as writing..." BUTINA

"we only have 2 month left before the US elections and it's the time for building an advisors team on Russia for a new president. I am seriously wony that the candidates some upcoming day will suddenly realize that 'now' is the time to do something with Russia and will look for advisory among currently popular radically oppositional to Russia crowd of experts. Bad things happen than. I believe we can prevent it."

To me this sounds like she is preparing for any candidate that might win, and 2 months before the election all money was on Hillary...does this mean, again by your logic, that Hillary or even Bernie equally colluded with Butina?

I'll make it easy on you...I am the biggest scumbag lying idiot in the in the world...so we can get past the name calling and discuss how Trump actually colluded with Butina to win the election. The affidavit you got your smoking gun from, to me, supports a attempt by Butina to secure future favor, much like a lobbyist,\ to the future president, whether it be Trump, Bernie, or Hillary...her is the affidavit.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Speaking of Trump defenders popping smoke:

In Memoriam 2018

Kristan King Nevins, Second Lady Chief of Staff, January 4

Mark Paoletta, Vice President Chief lawyer, January 5

Daris Meeks, Vice President domestic policy director, January 5

Shannon McGahn, Senior Treasury Official, January 5

John D Feeley, Ambassador to Panama, January 12

Majority of National Park Council, January 13

Carl Higbie, the Chief of External Affairs for CNCS, January 18

Omarosa Manigault, ?????, January 19

Taylor Weyeneth, White House liaison to the drug office, January 24

Dr. Brenda Fitzgerald, CDC Head, January 31

Robert Porter, White House staff secretary, February 7

David Sorenson, White House speech writer, February 9

Jim Carroll, Deputy Chief of Staff, February 9

Rachel Brand, Associate Attorney General, February 10, 2018

George David Banks, Special assistant to the president, February 14

Vivieca Wright, VA Chief of Staff, February 16

Josh Raffel, White House communications aide, February 27

Hope Hicks, Communcations Director, February 28

Gary Cohn, Economics Adviser, March 6

Rex Tillerson, Secretary of State, March 13

John McEntee, Personal Assistant to the President, March 13

Steve Goldstein, Under Secretary for Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs, March 13

Andrew McCabe, Deputy Director of the FBI Director, March 19

John Dowd, Lead Lawyer for Donald Trump, March 22

H.R McMaster, National Security Adviser, March 22

Joseph diGenova, Attorney for Trump (resigned before working for the president), March 25

Victoria Toensing, Attorney for Trump (resigned before working for the president), March 25

David Shulkin, VA secretary, March 28

D.J. Gribbin, Infrastructure Adviser, April 3

Samantha Dravis, EPA Counsel, April 5

Michael Anton, National Security Council spokesman, April 8

Tom Bossert, Honeland Security Adviser, April 10

Ricky Waddell, Deputy national security adviser, April 12

James Schwab, spokesperson for ICE, April 13

Rob Joyce, National Security Council Member, April 16

Thomas Homan, Deputy Ice Director, April 30

Ronny Jackson, Personal Doctor to the President, May 1

Ty Cobb, Lead Attorney, May 2

Dr. Jen Pena, Personal Doctor to the Vice President, May 4

Marc Short, the White House legislative director, June 15

Joe Hagin, Deputy Chief of Staff, June 19

Everett Eissenstat, Member of both National Economic Council and the National Security Council, June 26

Maggie Cordish, Adviser to Ivanka Trump on paid family leave, June 29

James D. Melville Jr., Ambassador to Estonia, June 29

Scott Pruitt, Head of EPA, July 5

Jennifer Arangio, A senior director in the NSC, July 13

Michael Barry, the senior National Security Council director for intelligence programs, July 17

Reagan Hedlund, Policy Director for the First Lady, August 3

Darren Bettie, Speech writer, August 19

Seth Frotman, Student loan Ombudsman (guy in charge of student loans), August 26

Don McGahan, White House Counsel, August 29 (said he would leave in fall)

Stefan Passantino, White House ethics lawyer, August 30

Retired Navy SEAL Adm. William McRaven, Defense Innovation Board, September 15

Arthur Elkins, Inspector General EPA, September 18

Nikki Haley, Ambassador to the UN, October 8

Mary Kendal, Acting Inspector General at the Department of the Interior, October 17

Suzanne Israel Tufts, an assistant secretary of Housing and Urban Development, October 19

Jeff Sessions, Attorney General, November 7

Mira Ricardel, Deputy National Security Adviser, November 14

Jordan Karem, Trump's "body man" and director of Oval Office Operations, November 26

Joe Dunford, Head of the Joint Chiefs, December 7

John Kelly, White House Chief of Staff, December 8

Nick Ayers, Vice President Chief of Staff (was speculated to be taking White House Chief of Staff job) December 9

Jim Mattis, Secretary of Defence, December 20

Ryan Zinke, Head of the Department of the Interior, December 15

Dana White, Pentagon Spokesperson, December 31

Dana White was being investigated by the Defense Department's inspector general for misconduct and abuse of power before her abrupt departure.

For more details feel free to not google this nor do any cursory snooping because “F” it.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politi ... al-n953421

- Doc

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Markk,

You've made it abundantly clear you have intellectual curiosity of an infant. I'm not going to spoon feed you the information that's already been posted on this forum. The fact that you just posted what you posted after I got done mocking you for not even bothering to read the links I just served up to you is pretty much par for the course.

You're fat on Chik-fil-A, bro. The banquet table doesn't interest you, you have no desire to pick up a plate and start taking your pick of all the tidbits, because why would you? You're full. You eat at Chik-fil-A. And you're pointing at the pigs-in-a-blanket telling everyone there's no banquet table, the offerings are garbage, and we're foolish for suggesting the morsels you're looking at are part of a larger spread.

What can I say? You're dull. You're committed. And your shtick is tired.

- Doc

[_Markk]

Since this is a Mormon themed message board, I'd like to note that LDS apologists love to respond to single lines or instances of evidence because their apologetic replies then don't have to worry about being mutually consistent with one another or deal with the cumulative improbability they create.

That is a loaded statement...LDS apologist ignore single evidences and try to make it a larger subject with rabbit trails for retreat all the time. Not sure how many Mopologist you have engaged but I would love to see you do so. They might pick or choose a topic that they can turn into a attack on the messager...to avoid discussing the real issue...which is what I see here a lot with the subject at hand here.

I'll wait for your opening argument as a prosecutor that Trump personally colluded with the Russian's.

[_Maksutov]

I thought this was interesting.

https://trumpgolfcount.com/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... 9b7f529ad3

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... a071c6434f

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/03/busi ... iches.html

But I'm sure all of these things are acceptable when it's a Republican.

[_Maksutov]

Since this is a Mormon themed message board, I'd like to note that LDS apologists love to respond to single lines or instances of evidence because their apologetic replies then don't have to worry about being mutually consistent with one another or deal with the cumulative improbability they create.

That is a loaded statement...LDS apologist ignore single evidences and try to make it a larger subject with rabbit trails for retreat all the time. Not sure how many Mopologist you have engaged but I would love to see you do so. They might pick or choose a topic that they can turn into a attack on the messager...to avoid discussing the real issue...which is what I see here a lot with the subject at hand here.

I'll wait for your opening argument as a prosecutor that Trump personally colluded with the Russian's.

Let's save the pretense that we're some kind of court. We're an internet forum for Chrissakes.

One by one, people very close to Trump, serving Trump, acting on behalf of Trump, are being exposed as felons, perjurers and possibly worse. And they have common ties to Russians. That's a fact, Markk. Not a conspiracy theory. It's been happening. It will continue. I expect that it will come to his family as well. Coming up with tinfoil hat scenarios will only make the Trumpers and by extension, the conservatives, look more absurd and ignorant. I think that's a disservice to conservatism. Conservatism needs to survive Trump, not become his cult of apologists and Savonarolas. Real conservatism is needed. Demagoguery in service of a dishonest businessman is not conservative, it's insanity.

You can claim there is no collusion. Keep saying that. Do you think it will stop prosecutions and convictions for felonies? Do you think that fixating on a phrase or a term is some magic shield from investigation? Only in the Fox bubble. Only if one's head is stuck in Breitbart.

Really, Markk, you're smarter than this.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

► Trump was first compromised by the Russians back in the Eighties in the days of the Soviet Union and the Cold War. In 1984 the Russian Mafia first began to use Trump real estate to launder money and it continued for decades and may have accounted for billions of dollars flowing to Trump. In 1987, the Soviet ambassador to the United Nations, Yuri Dubinin, arranged for Trump and his then-wife, Ivana, to enjoy an all-expense-paid trip to Moscow to consider possible business prospects. Only seven weeks after his trip, Trump ran full-page ads in the Boston Globe, the NYT and Washington Post calling for, in effect, the dismantling of the postwar Western foreign policy alliance.

► In 1984, David Bogatin — who is a Russian mobster, convicted gasoline bootlegger, and close ally of Semion Mogilevich, a major Russian mob boss — met with Trump in Trump Tower right after it opened. Bogatin bought five condos from Trump at that meeting. Those condos were later seized by the government, which claimed they were used to launder money for the Russian mob.

► The whole Trump/Russian connection started out as laundering money for the Russian mob through Trump's real estate, but evolved into something far bigger.

► Felix Sater is a Russian-born former mobster, real estate developer, and former managing director of Bayrock Group LLC, a real estate conglomerate based out of New York City. He is a convict who became a govt cooperator for the FBI and other agencies. He grew up with Michael Cohen--Trump's former "fixer" attorney. Sater's longtime ties to Michael Cohen are not so much a coincidence as part of the fabric of the entire scandal. Cohen's family owned El Caribe, which was a mob hangout for the Russian Mafia in Brooklyn. Cohen had ties to Ukrainian oligarchs through his in-laws and his brother's in-laws. Felix Sater's father had ties to the Russian mob. This goes back more than 30 years.

► Trump was $4 billion in debt after his Atlantic City casinos went bankrupt. No U.S. bank would touch him. Then foreign money began flowing in, through a real estate development company called Bayrock, located on the 24th floor of Trump Tower. Bayrock was run by two investors: Tevfik Arif, a Kazakhstan-born former Soviet official who drew on seemingly bottomless sources of money from the former Soviet republic; and Felix Sater, a Russian-born businessman who had pleaded guilty in the 1990s to a huge stock-fraud scheme involving the Russian mafia. Bayrock proceeded to partner with Trump in 2005 and helped him develop a new business model, which he desperately needed. So in the early 2000s, Bayrock poured money into the Trump organization, under the legal guise of licensing his name and property management.

► Felix Sater was dealing with Russian companies such as Mirax and Sistema and their principals are tied to Semion Mogilevich, the brains behind the Russian Mafia. Mogilevich operatives have been using Trump real estate for decades to launder money. That means Russian Mafia operatives have been part of his fortune for years, that many of them have owned condos in Trump Towers and other properties, that they were running operations out of Trump's crown jewel. But Mogilevich's role today is not entirely clear. Ultimately, Putin is in charge.

► One of the most important things that is often overlooked is that the Russia Mafia is part and parcel of Russian intelligence. Russia is a mafia state. that is not a metaphor. Putin is head of the Mafia. So the fact that they have been operating out of the home of the president of the United States is deeply disturbing.

► Craig Unger: "Early on, a source told me that all this was tied to Semion Mogilevich, the powerful Russian mobster. I had never even heard of him, but I immediately went to a database that listed the owners of all properties in NY state and looked up all the Trump properties. Every time I found a Russian sounding name, I would Google, and add Mogilevich. When you do investigative reporting, you anticipate drilling a number of dry holes, but almost everyone I googled turned out to be a Russian mobster. Again and again. If you know New York you don't expect Trump Tower to be a high crime neighborhood, but there were far too many Russian mobsters in Trump properties for it to be a coincidence."

► So many Russians bought Trump apartments at his developments in Florida that the area became known as Little Moscow. The developers of two of his hotels were Russians with significant links to the Russian mob. The late leader of that mob in the United States, Vyacheslav Kirillovich Ivankov, was living at the Trump Towers.

► Here is the most prominent example: In July 2008, the height of the recession, Donald Trump sold a mansion in Palm Beach for $95 million to Dmitry Rybolovlev, a Russian oligarch. Trump had purchased it four years earlier for $41.35 million. The sale price was nearly $54 million more than Trump had paid for the property. Again, this was the height of the recession when all other property had plummeted in value.

► As an example of the Russian mob was operating out of Trump Tower, in 2013, Federal agents busted an “ultraexclusive, high-stakes, illegal poker ring” run by Russian gangsters out of Trump Tower. In addition to card games, they operated illegal gambling websites, ran a global sports book and laundered more than $100 million. A condo directly below one owned by Trump reportedly served as HQ for a “sophisticated money-laundering scheme” connected to Semion Mogilevich.

► It has been widely known for decades that Russia often used videotaped "honey traps" to compromise influential visitors. General Oleg Kalugin, former head of counterintelligence for the KGB, told Craig Unger (Author, "House of Trump, House of Putin") they probably did this with Trump during his visit to Russia in 1987--long before the events in the Steele dossier. "I can't tell what is inside Trump's mind, but everyone who traveled to Russia knew this."

► Rudy Giuliani famously prosecuted the Italian mob while he was a federal prosecutor, yet the Russian mob was allowed to thrive under his tenure in the Southern District and Mayor. And now he's deeply entwined in the business of Trump and Russian oligarchs. Giuiani appointed Semyon Kislin to the NYC Economic Development Council in 1990, and the FBI described Kislin as having ties tot he Russian mob. Of course, it made good political sense for Giuliani to get headlines for smashing the Italian mob.

► A lot of Republicans in Washington are implicated. It is sometimes said that in Washington, the biggest scandal is what IS legal, and in this case you will find boatloads of Russian money going to the GOP--often in legal ways. The National Rifle Association got $70M from Russia, then funneled it to the GOP (cite: McClatchy). The Republican Senatorial Campaign Committee got big bucks. The big white shoe law firms--Jones Day, for example-- represent powerful Russian oligarchs who have billions and billions of dollars. Much of this is legal even though it appears to have compromised huge parts of the GOP. This book alleges that most of the GOP leadership has been compromised by RU money. The Republican Senatorial Campaign Committee run by Mitch McConnell got millions from Leonard Blavatnik. In the 90s, the Russians began sending money to top GOP leaders, like Speaker of the House Tom Delay, (etc).

► Ivana Trump (Trump's first wife) was under surveillance by the STB, the Czech secret police, and they reported to the KGB. Ivana got out of Communist Czechoslovakia in the 70s which was not easy to do.

► Regarding the Steele dossier, while not everything in the dossier has been corroborated, some of it has and none of it has been disproved. Steele has a terrific reputation in the intelligence world.

► Trump may be forced out sooner than some people realize, but it is an epic scandal that is going to take a few years to unravel. We have entered a new age of kleptocracy with Russia as a Mafia state, with the Saudis dismembering journalists. There is a lot of cleaning up to do.

► We don't know who may be prosecuted with Deutsche Bank, but Russian money laundering is a huge part of this and how they compromised Trump. Trump was $4 billion in debt and the Russians bailed him out. They own him.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/12/21/ho ... -business/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... 9dca45f1d9

- Doc