Res Ipsa wrote:The difference is that the federal workers had nothing to do with what Trump wanted.
And DACA folks have something to do with a wall because they're Latinos? They're still being held as hostages and I thought that was the problem you had with it.
Res Ipsa wrote:If you take the position that you won’t negotiate over DACA unless Trump first conceded that the dreamers can stay, you might as well kiss the Dreamers goodbye.
What is it exactly that you believe he is willing to give? So far it seems his concessions on DACA have been empty and I don't see the rush to have something done about DACA since the courts have pretty much blocked Trump's malicious intentions to phase-out the program and the Democrats seem hopeful on Trump being impeached or at the very least voted out of office in 20 months.
I think Trump's best bet is to go with the "smart cyber wall" gambit and hope that plays out well for him with his base who were expecting a literal 1,000 mile physical barrier.
Kevin, both DACA and the wall are part of immigration policy along with a bunch of other stuff.
I’m not willing to leave the Dreamers hanging on the slim chance that Trump is removed from office.
Are you saying that Democrats should give Trump some smart wall in exchange for nothing?
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
Res Ipsa wrote:Kevin, both DACA and the wall are part of immigration policy along with a bunch of other stuff.
I’m not willing to leave the Dreamers hanging on the slim chance that Trump is removed from office.
Are you saying that Democrats should give Trump some smart wall in exchange for nothing?
I'm saying I don't believe Trump is willing to give anything with respect to DACA and I think a Smart Wall would be a win for Democrats because it:
1) Isn't anything like the wall Trump described
2) Is far more effective and efficient than a physical barrier
3) Proves Democrats are more interested in funding real border security than Republicans
I understand Trump could be in office for the full term, but I believe the window for the Court taking up the case of DACA this term is all but closed. We'll see how Pelosi responds soon enough I suppose.
Res Ipsa wrote:Kevin, both DACA and the wall are part of immigration policy along with a bunch of other stuff.
I’m not willing to leave the Dreamers hanging on the slim chance that Trump is removed from office.
Are you saying that Democrats should give Trump some smart wall in exchange for nothing?
I'm saying I don't believe Trump is willing to give anything with respect to DACA and I think a Smart Wall would be a win for Democrats because it:
1) Isn't anything like the wall Trump described
2) Is far more effective and efficient than a physical barrier
3) Proves Democrats are more interested in funding real border security than Republicans
I understand Trump could be in office for the full term, but I believe the window for the Court taking up the case of DACA this term is all but closed. We'll see how Pelosi responds soon enough I suppose.
I disagree. Under that scenario, Trump wins and Democrats look like chumps because they got nothing out of the deal. Nancy’s a better negotiator than that.
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
I'm not suggesting she not try to get something, I'm saying she shouldn't sacrifice building a literal physical wall over DACA when that could very easily be worked out in a couple of years anyway. I was just supporting the idea of a "smart cyber wall" and if Pelosi can work her magic, just convince our moron-in-chief that a cyber wall is really a literal physical wall.
If you think Trump's base would be OK with a cyber wall as opposed to a physical 35 ft wall that's 1,000 miles long, then I think you underestimate them. It would be a huge loss for Trump because for years now everyone has been expecting him to fulfill his promise that it would be real and Mexico would pay.
WHat strikes me about Pelosi's rhetoric throughout the shutdown is that she has never once indicated she would budge on a physical wall being built, even if the shutdown were to end. She would always say things like, "End the shutdown Mr. President and then we can negotiate on how to secure the border." It seems to me that if she were ever willing to fund a physical wall then she would have indicated that before now because it would have provided an incentive to open the government up weeks ago.
What if...developers can present a high tech system to cover the areas that he's talking about and that frees up border patrol personnel somewhat to cover the ports of entry where the illegal drugs are actually coming in...I think he could sell that and his base (and other citizens) would buy it.
Two birds, one stone.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Kevin Graham wrote: If you think Trump's base would be OK with a cyber wall as opposed to a physical 35 ft wall that's 1,000 miles long, then I think you underestimate them. It would be a huge loss for Trump because for years now everyone has been expecting him to fulfill his promise that it would be real and Mexico would pay.
I hear from at least some of his base on almost a daily basis. You'd be shocked by what they are saying. I know that I am. And I'm talking about your typical Trump supporter. Not those whose vote for Trump was a vote against Hillary Clinton.
What has to happen is for both sides to gravitate to the middle and if you don't think anyone is willing to do that, I think you're wrong. Trump just baby stepped towards the middle himself. Granted he was forced into it, but that's how negotiation is going to have to work.
In order to save face with his base he has to satisfy them somehow. You want to see him wrestled to the ground and cry uncle, and that's not realistic.
Get real.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Kevin Graham wrote:I'm not suggesting she not try to get something, I'm saying she shouldn't sacrifice building a literal physical wall over DACA when that could very easily be worked out in a couple of years anyway. I was just supporting the idea of a "smart cyber wall" and if Pelosi can work her magic, just convince our moron-in-chief that a cyber wall is really a literal physical wall.
If you think Trump's base would be OK with a cyber wall as opposed to a physical 35 ft wall that's 1,000 miles long, then I think you underestimate them. It would be a huge loss for Trump because for years now everyone has been expecting him to fulfill his promise that it would be real and Mexico would pay.
WHat strikes me about Pelosi's rhetoric throughout the shutdown is that she has never once indicated she would budge on a physical wall being built, even if the shutdown were to end. She would always say things like, "End the shutdown Mr. President and then we can negotiate on how to secure the border." It seems to me that if she were ever willing to fund a physical wall then she would have indicated that before now because it would have provided an incentive to open the government up weeks ago.
When Trump says smart wall, he’s still including the steel bollard fence. So, yeah, 1000 miles of physical “wall” So if you are right that Pelosi won’t budge on a physical wall and Trump won’t budge either, you’ve already given up.
During the shutdown is different, as Pelosi staked out a firm position that she would not negotiate at all while the government was shut down. The government won’t be shut down shortly. Just watch. Lots of what we’ll hear is posturing, but I’m pretty sure a deal will be done.
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
Kevin Graham wrote:WHat strikes me about Pelosi's rhetoric throughout the shutdown is that she has never once indicated she would budge on a physical wall being built, even if the shutdown were to end. She would always say things like, "End the shutdown Mr. President and then we can negotiate on how to secure the border." It seems to me that if she were ever willing to fund a physical wall then she would have indicated that before now because it would have provided an incentive to open the government up weeks ago.
Today Trump himself presented a high tech/smart wall that includes physical barrier except in locations where a natural barrier exists.
He has made concessions by introducing technology to the equation. That's at least a step forward and the Democrats who said they wanted increased border security INCLUDING tech....have it now within arms reach.
Both sides have to compromise. He compromised by ending the shut down, agreeing to pursue negotiations, and introducing tech features to border security. That's why it's called negotiating an agreement.
Or Let's Make a Deal as we now know it.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb