Hurting Economically Does Not Absolve a Trump Vote

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_Some Schmo
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Re: Hurting Economically Does Not Absolve a Trump Vote

Post by _Some Schmo »

honorentheos wrote:
Perfume on my Mind wrote:Forgiving people for being stupid will not help the current situation.

Expand on this. What exactly do you think is the call to action contained in your OP?

I didn't have a call to action. I was simply pointing out that people who voted for Trump for economic reasons (should any exist) don't escape criticism for their vote. It was a stupid damned vote, especially if it were for economic reasons.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Some Schmo
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Re: Hurting Economically Does Not Absolve a Trump Vote

Post by _Some Schmo »

Honor, maybe this is closer to what you were looking for:

I come from a generation where if you were really good at something, you were rewarded for it, and if you were average, you got squat.

These days, everyone's a winner!

There's this idea, for instance, that we shouldn't fat shame. Bill Maher was talking a couple weeks ago about how it should make a comeback, and my reaction to that bit was "Holy crap, yes it does!!"

Shame is a very useful societal tool. It gets people to excel. It forces many to act better than they would otherwise. Shame is a good thing. Shameless is bad.

If people do something that is demonstrably stupid, counter to known facts, we aren't progressing anything by saving them their feelings, or giving them the impression their voice is as important as other, more realistic ones.

I'm sorry, but people need to know: if they voted for Trump, they made a moronic damned choice, no matter what their stated reason is for doing so. They did a dumb damned thing and they should own it for the mistake it was.

I know most won't, but I'll keep telling them anyway. “F” the morons.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_ajax18
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Re: Hurting Economically Does Not Absolve a Trump Vote

Post by _ajax18 »

Remember that the voter pool spans across some shifts in our economy. It was less important to have a college degree 40 years ago than it is today. Trump's support is heavily skewed towards the end of the spectrum where college degrees were not as frequently a requisite to decent salaries.


I think you probably don't even know who most Trump voters are in real life. Politics is so nasty and divisive in todays world people usually aren't allowed to talk about it outside of anonymous online communities.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Some Schmo
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Re: Hurting Economically Does Not Absolve a Trump Vote

Post by _Some Schmo »

ajax18 wrote:I think you probably don't even know who most Trump voters are in real life. Politics is so nasty and divisive in todays world people usually aren't allowed to talk about it outside of anonymous online communities.

They are allowed to talk about it, but they know if they admit it, they will be justifiably shamed. Shame works.

Obviously you don't admit your Trumpiness in real life. Somewhere deep down inside, you damned know it's shameful.

Again... giving you the benefit of the doubt here.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Maksutov
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Re: Hurting Economically Does Not Absolve a Trump Vote

Post by _Maksutov »

Perfume on my Mind wrote:
ajax18 wrote:I think you probably don't even know who most Trump voters are in real life. Politics is so nasty and divisive in todays world people usually aren't allowed to talk about it outside of anonymous online communities.

They are allowed to talk about it, but they know if they admit it, they will be justifiably shamed. Shame works.

Obviously you don't admit your Trumpiness in real life. Somewhere deep down inside, you ____ know it's shameful.

Again... giving you the benefit of the doubt here.


Political extremist media is a kind of porn. :cool:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_EAllusion
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Re: Hurting Economically Does Not Absolve a Trump Vote

Post by _EAllusion »

ajax18 wrote:I think you probably don't even know who most Trump voters are in real life. Politics is so nasty and divisive in todays world people usually aren't allowed to talk about it outside of anonymous online communities.


So your theory is that Trump's voting demographics don't actually skew older because polls, which show a massive age disparity in Trump support, are a sham based on shy Trump supporters avoiding being counted?

Cool. Given that older Trump voters aren't so shy, I guess the implication of this is that Trump is secretly super-popular once you realize the youth support him like older people.

I also guess now that you're free to be unhinged from reality, you can claim that Trump does best among the demographics you personally like and worst among those that you don't. All hail the dear leader's greatness.
_ajax18
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Re: Hurting Economically Does Not Absolve a Trump Vote

Post by _ajax18 »

So your theory is that Trump's voting demographics don't actually skew older because polls, which show a massive age disparity in Trump support, are a sham based on shy Trump supporters avoiding being counted?


Well if young and getting started in my career and working for Some Schmo, do you think I want him knowing I voted for Trump? What if I'm older, more established or even retired? It's a little more difficult for people like Schmo to destroy my career at that point is it not?

Let's simplify this a bit and I'll let you fill in the gaps. The polls and everyone on this board in all their wisdom were certain that Hillary Clinton would be the 45th president in 2016, like all the way up to 4pm on 11/7/16. So why exactly were they so wrong? You're a smart man. Why were you and everyone else on your side unable to see this coming?

If it was just deplorable racists coming down out of the woods to vote, where were these people in 2012? If anything the demographics in 2012 would favor Republicans more than the demographics in 2016 right? Did you not know about the electoral college before 2016?
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_EAllusion
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Re: Hurting Economically Does Not Absolve a Trump Vote

Post by _EAllusion »

ajax18 wrote:
Well if young and getting started in my career and working for Some Schmo, do you think I want him knowing I voted for Trump? What if I'm older, more established or even retired? It's a little more difficult for people like Schmo to destroy my career at that point is it not?


The correlation in Trump support and age is extremely strong and linear. The older you are, the more likely you are to support Trump. What you are suggesting is that America secretly has a robust approval of Trump. This is delusional.

Let's simplify this a bit and I'll let you fill in the gaps. The polls and everyone on this board in all their wisdom were certain that Hillary Clinton would be the 45th president in 2016, like all the way up to 4pm on 11/7/16. So why exactly were they so wrong? You're a smart man. Why were you and everyone else on your side unable to see this coming?


The polls were off by about a little under two points. Clinton had a polling lead of about 4 points and only won the popular vote by a little over 2 points. That's smaller than the historical average of polling averages being off and really close in the big scheme of things. For contrast, Obama had a 2 point lead over Romney going into election night and won by about 4 points. A 2 point error cannot explain the kind of gap you are attempting to explain where people at retirement age approve of Trump at around 55% (and will vote for him in higher numbers) and people 18-29 approve of him at around 20%. That's more than two points. A lot more. A 2 point, nor a 5 point, nor even a 10 point error makes up that gap.

As for why Clinton seemed like a shoe-in, that was pre-Comey letter. It was a very late development, if you recall. If you search my posts at that time, my opinion of her prospects looks a lot shakier after that happened. One of the fun things about the conspiracy theory you believe in which the FBI frames Trump is that the FBI during the actual election refused to tell the American people about the on-going investigation into Trump, allowed the press to print that the FBI saw no link between the Trump campaign and Russia even though the truth was the opposite, and then violated DoJ policy to expose Clinton over something that turned out to be nothing. This was enough to shift a close win for her into a close loss.

If it was just deplorable racists coming down out of the woods to vote, where were these people in 2012?


Trump didn't get very many more votes than Romney did, nor was he running against Barack Obama in 2012 conditions as opposed to Clinton in 2016 conditions. Each election is its own thing. For one, you are aware that Presidential incumbents are heavily favored, right? A Presidential incumbent has not lost without their being a recession in the election year or an unpopular war in over a century. Trump was not running against one of those.

That said, Trump was more appealing to people who express high racial resentment in 2016 than Romney was in 2012 or McCain was in 2008. The studies on this are quite clear. Why? Trump's overt racism is more appealing than voting against Obama would be my guess.
_moksha
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Re: Hurting Economically Does Not Absolve a Trump Vote

Post by _moksha »

EAllusion wrote:Trump has been continuing to lose support among the educated...

The educated are able to identify the chemical composition of snake oil.
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_Smokey
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Re: Hurting Economically Does Not Absolve a Trump Vote

Post by _Smokey »

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