Impeachment hearings

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_honorentheos
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _honorentheos »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Just so we're being clear.

- You DON'T BELIEVE Biden did something wrong, and you're ARGUING IN FAVOR OF Biden's innocence. Correct?

- You DO BELIEVE the Republicans are BEING DISHONEST by suggesting Biden did something worth investigating. Correct?

- Doc

Correct. And Correct.
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

honorentheos wrote:Show me where I claimed Biden did something.

I'll wait.

You may want to reread this post to save some time.

viewtopic.php?p=1208231#p1208231


I read that post. It's posts like these that infused confusion into your position:

Your back and forth with EA:

EA wrote:You don't get to extort foreign allies by withholding lawfully appropriated aid to work with your personal attorney to announce a prewritten statement of investigations into your political opponent (tainting any real fact finding that could occur in the process), even if that opponent did illicit things. That you don't get this is wild. That's an egregious abuse of office regardless of whether the person is guilty.


And then you wrote this odd take in response to a very clear, concise statement on the President's unambiguous wrongoing.

honorentheos wrote:That you seem to not get the above is simply ridiculously picking and choosing a narrative that works for whatever you want it to do is certainly something.

What Biden did does matter, and it matters in both reality and in the fictional hypothetical being tossed around. Saying it doesn't is playing to a conservative mischaracterization of Democrat motives that is stupid as well as ridiculous.

What matters is in reality, what Biden did isn't what Republicans are playing off as being. And if you want to play at what ifs, it would be the scandal of the decade were it true.

It's not. Though I again I wonder if your stance on this is primarily built on holding a much more narrow and pessimistic view of Bidens actions that suggests you need to buffer it from Trump's actions. Your version of reality may be much closer to the hypothetical and, frankly, I've not seen you lay out what you think happened there which is quite suspicious in this light.


I can literally go through half a dozen pages, if you'd like, where you make this kind of odd duck post that obfuscates CLEAR and CONCISE illegal behavior by the President with whatever it is you think Biden's "actions" were, which, is especially odd since you're telling me outright that you think Biden is innocent of the charges levelled against him and, apparently, doesn't require investigating by the DoJ?

eta because I don't want to make another post just to add to the point above:

Honor, when stating the following:

honorentheos wrote:That is ignoring if Biden actually did work the withholding of aid to benefit his son, it wouldn't be clear there was wrong doing on Trump's part.


Playing some sort of weird Devil's advocate with SS muddled your position if, indeed, your statement above is accurate about your belief that Biden is innocent of GOP charges.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_honorentheos
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _honorentheos »

Again, at one point in this discussion we proposed a bizarro alternative universe where Biden did do the things he is accused of.

All of those statements in pink above are criticizing EA for arguing in that context it still wouldn't matter what Biden did. So even if we lived in that bizarro universe where Biden did in fact abuse the office of VP we should focus on what Trump did in this universe where Biden didn't do those things.

I've tried to make it clear that this is a dumb scenario to have pursued from the get go but it seemed irresistible to some people to argue what Trump did is so bad it's contaminating all possible universes.

My concern is this comes across as making impeachment a partisan attempt to remove Trump. One can't argue that what Biden did doesn't matter at all and not at least partially validate Republican claims it's not about justice but just partisan attacks on Trump.
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

honorentheos wrote:Again, at one point in this discussion we proposed a bizarro alternative universe where Biden did do the things he is accused of.

All of those statements in pink above are criticizing EA for arguing in that context it still wouldn't matter what Biden did. So even if we lived in that bizarro universe where Biden did in fact abuse the office of VP we should focus on what Trump did in this universe where Biden didn't do those things.

I've tried to make it clear that this is a dumb scenario to have pursued from the get go but it seemed irresistible to some people to argue what Trump did is so bad it's contaminating all possible universes.

My concern is this comes across as making impeachment a partisan attempt to remove Trump. One can't argue that what Biden did doesn't matter at all and not at least partially validate Republican claims it's not about justice but just partisan attacks on Trump.


Well. I appreciate your patience with me, but at some point your 'bizarro universe' argument became whataboutism or was just simply lost as the discussion progressed further. I don't know why a 'bizarro universe' argument needs to even be included because it seems like a bad strategy when discussing this universe and Trump's clear, unambiguous crimes.

ALL THAT SAID.

I do believe Hunter Biden got his position with Burisma thanks to VP Biden's name and connections. I said it before, and I'll say it again, Hunter Biden was totally unqualified for that kind of job, and this is why people know and can see with their own eyeballs politicians USING THEIR OFFICE or their stature for personal gain, or to the benefit of their family, is wrong.

If I were President I would've asked the DoJ to probe the Bidens for wrongdoing as soon as I took office. Then again, Trump is and was so mired in his own venality it seems obvious why he wouldn't have wanted to do that, and that's why he tried to backdoor it.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_honorentheos
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _honorentheos »

We agree it's a bad strategy. I thought I made that clear early on such as here:

viewtopic.php?p=1208615#p1208615


I don't disagree with anything you say above.
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_honorentheos
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _honorentheos »

I'm also arguing for the following:

Democrats need to address the bad optics of the Hunter Biden relationship to Burisma. I think that the facts are so clearly in Joe Biden's favor that it is a low risk move that is also absolutely essential. That optics are terrible but superficial. So not addressing it leaves a huge issue out there Republicans are taking advantage of and will exploit even further when impeachment goes to the Senate. If Lindsey Graham's statements are any indication, they are going to use the parallels to the incident with Joe Biden and Shokin to say Democrats were biased, the impeachment was partisan, and summarily vote it away. And that will be the last impression the public has of the impeachment proceedings.

I think it's essential to be able to say, "What Joe Biden did matters". Impeachment is being painted as a hail mary to try and remove Trump from office and overturn an election. To say, "What Biden did doesn't matter" is playing directly into the claim that impeachment isn't about actual wrong doing or protecting the nation. It turns the essential actions of Congress of providing oversight of the Executive into partisan maneuvering if one asserts it, and one that appears to support Republican claims it's only about ousting Trump out of concern the Democrats don't have a candidate that can beat him in 2020.

What Biden did does matter, and illuminating it isn't what the optics suggest also makes it clear just how duplicitous Trump and Republicans are being when they try to make the optics the story rather than the actual facts.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

But what did Biden do with regard to to Burisma, the Ukrainian government, and his son that needs perception management? Maybe that’ll help someone like myself trying to follow your line of reasoning now that I’m back on track.

Like I said, if Trump or the DoJ had cause for concern back in 2016, 2017, 2018, or now 2019 why wasn’t a probe conducted and, say, they grabbed all of Biden’s State departments communications for review?

I will say this, sending Rudy to Ukraine to come back with a briefcase full of papers is so clownish and ridiculous it defies all sense. The only people this doesn’t bother are the dullards who like Trump, and can’t comprehend the damage he’s doing to our country.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_subgenius
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _subgenius »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:...
If I were President I would've asked the DoJ to probe the Bidens for wrongdoing as soon as I took office. ...
- Doc

Trump casually mentioned this notion, publicly, but perhaps he shied away from official action given the hair-fire that surrounded his same request previously with regards to the Democrats' sacred cow (a.k.a. the Clintons).
But it is not unreasonable to ask Ukraine to probe because it does take it out DNC tentacles...and since no evidence or proof of quid/quo has been revealed, it was a political success because Biden is done....as are Democrats in 2020.
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

subgenius wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:...
If I were President I would've asked the DoJ to probe the Bidens for wrongdoing as soon as I took office. ...
- Doc

Trump casually mentioned this notion, publicly, but perhaps he shied away from official action given the hair-fire that surrounded his same request previously with regards to the Democrats' sacred cow (a.k.a. the Clintons).
But it is not unreasonable to ask Ukraine to probe because it does take it out DNC tentacles...and since no evidence or proof of quid/quo has been revealed, it was a political success because Biden is done....as are Democrats in 2020.


Yeah. Trump totally shies away from things because he’s worried what Democrats think of him. Uh huh.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_EAllusion
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _EAllusion »

I don't get Honor's sense of political strategy here at all. Like, if someone accuses him of being a pedophile, the important thing to salvage his reputation is to go on a speaking tour explaining how he is not a pedophile and how accusations against him are based on totally innocent behavior around kids? A non-zero amount of people are going to interpret that as you being a pedophile, Honor, which is a win when the default was zero.
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