The DoubtingThomas dating / relationships MEGATHREAD

[_DoubtingThomas]

You must have an astronomical society that has a Facebook group to join. Ours is doing a virtual happy hour on Friday. There's stuff like that you can get into right now, sort of meet a few folks online and when this virus mess is over--go join them in person.

As to the community service. Sure, that's hard right now but not impossible. Our community has it's own Facebook group. You probably have one in your area. Let's say you live in an apartment complex. You could start a Facebook group for the apartments so folks could communicate their needs and others could try to meet those needs. Or reach out to folks if you have Nextdoor.

See you said that stuff to the wrong person! Keep reading...

You seem to be pretty good at tech stuff. You could help the older folks figure out how to do online banking, how to set up a patient portal with their doc and use it, how to order groceries online--that sort of thing. Around here we've got younger folks offering to pick up grocery orders for people who are high risk and dropping them at their door step.

In my gardeners group, people were offering to bring me seeds to keep me out of Lowes when I had only posted asking how the store traffic was right now. You could get on your local Facebook community page if you have one and offer to go pick up seeds/plants for people at risk so they don't have to go inside stores. See if there is some disabled folk who need help getting the garden started or a bit of yard clean up because they are separated from their families who usually give them a hand right now.

"Hello everyone! If you are at high risk and can't get to the stores, I'd be happy to pick up your garden seeds and plants curbside orders, and deliver them to your door step. You buy, I'll fly! " Let them pre-order/pay for what they can so they don't think you're after their cash--because that's been done with grocery orders. Then you do the curbside pick up for them. If they want to pick out their own stuff...you go in the store with your cell phone and show them what's there with the camera.

If you have a certain neighbor or two that you know you can help out, just concentrate on that person or persons.

We have one particular restaurant that is donating pizza to essential workers, hospital staff, fire department, paramedics. If you have an outstanding place in your area...toss them some money to put back in their pockets or be sure to give them your paid business.

Pick something or come up with your own idea and do it. If you yourself are at risk, it's still not impossible to help out. I confess this is the first time ever in my life that I haven't been able to go out into the community and actually help people in a hands on way, because I'm in an at risk category. First time ever that I had to tell myself ---->"You can't do that". :confused:

So I try to help out folks in other ways from a distance. Like today someone had put up an announcement to the local group. Another person wanted to know how to share it so I told her to copy the text, take it to her own Facebook pick out a background if she wanted it and just paste in the text. Also how to copy/share a screen shot. There's all kinds of things you can do for folks if you care to tune in.

Yes, Jersey Girl. I love those ideas thank you! I promise to reply with more detail. Thanks.

[_Jersey Girl]

...and as Lemmie said, it's important to her to identify and call out sexist remarks because to turn a blind eye to it makes it somehow acceptable and ultimately normalizes it....

Thanks for re-stating that, Jersey Girl, you said it better than I did!

No problem. So long as i didn't misrepresent your position.

[_Dr. Shades]

DoubtingThomas: Remember when I urged you to quit reading and discussing studies?

Did what I say go in one ear and out the other?

EAllusion, don't encourage him!!

[_Jersey Girl]

DoubtingThomas: Remember when I urged you to quit reading and discussing studies?

Did what I say go in one ear and out the other?

EAllusion, don't encourage him!!

People have been telling him that ever since he started the topic. What, are you so special?

[_Lemmie]

I cannot find support within those studies for your claim that it is especially prevalent within minorities and Mexicans.
Please quote the parts that support your assertion.

You have to read the study (not the abstract) and look for the word "Hispanic". The Ryan study isn't about 17 year olds, but it makes me assume that a lot of Hispanic 17 year old girls are dating older guys. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18318868

It also concludes “ CONCLUSION:
Although the proportion of 15-17-year-old women who have a much older partner is small” (“small” isn’t a synonym of “many” or “common”).

Much older means "six or more years older" and 18% is small compared to the other percentages, but in a population or an age group 18% is a lot. So yes, a lot of 17 year olds are dating 20 year old guys.

According to the numbers at least 36% of 17 year olds have a relationship with older guys (3 years or older). 36% is a lot! Some states do allow 20 year old guys to date 17 year old women. 17 year olds are not juveniles in my state.'
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10435214

If DT were Mexican-American himself, you might instead interpret his claim as attempting to argue that it is a more culturally normal thing for people like himself.

I am not, but it is in the literature. There are many other sources.

This would be weird if he wasn't attempting to defend a personal desire to have sexual relationships with teenagers.

18 or older are not teenagers. How many times do I have to state that I would never be in a relationship with someone under 18, even if the legal age is 16 or 17? Tell me how many? The thing is you accused me of borderline desire because I said I was willing to date an 18 year old woman .

However, anything more than 1% is still a lot. Wouldn't you agree? It is doubtful the rate dropped a lot in the hispanic culture or states with the age of consent of 16.

Of course it is (or was) higher for 17 year olds. It is illegal for an adult to be in a relationship with a 15 year old, and 16 is illegal in most US states. But it is okay for a 17 year old to date an older guy in many areas. The average age for sexual activity is 17, not 16 or 15. Please stop making me talk about 15 year olds.

Or high school seniors having sex with high school seniors. You can still be a senior at age 20.

I never said I only want virgin. If you read the first page "I really don't want to be the 4th, 5th, or 6th guy. It is okay if I am the 2nd guy, but more than that is just scary." and " I wouldn't have a problem dating a woman that was divorced."

EAllusion wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 12:09 am
after backing off a more strident focus on teens you got a ton of flack for.

Please stop lying. You need to say "18 years or older",or simply say "women". If I want to I could say "I am open on dating a 17 year old", but I will never date a 17 year old woman because I don't feel it is appropriate, even if it is okay in some US states or the Hispanic culture.

" 7% a partner who was six or more years older" is definitely much much higher for 17 year olds.

MOST 17 YEAR OLDS ARE SEXUALLY ACTIVE. THERE IS NO BIG DIFFERENCE.

That is because I don't want to talk about 15 year olds, I mean come on! And yes because the percentage is 15-17 that means the percentage is (or was) much higher for 17 year olds.

For 17 year olds? 17 year olds are way more active than 15 year olds. Please stop making me talk about 15 year olds.

Anyways, my point is that is not very rare, or "more common than you think", especially in the hispanic community and some states.

And another round begins.

In doing some research on where DT might be getting his “topics,” some interesting patterns have emerged.

Critical discourse analyses of these [Incel related] groups’ communications online had uncovered predator-prey or master-servant dichotomies in their discussions about male-female relationships, and a reinforced sense of entitlement [3, 27]. For Incels, misogyny appeared to be coupled with racism as well, in particular for women of colour who are perceived as racially betraying darker skinned men in favour of white men [3, 34].

https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3292522.3326045

Sound familiar? But DT argues he does not know about “Incels” so consider this deeper look, from the same link:

r/: this is the main incel subreddit since r/incels was removed from Reddit in November 2017 for violating site- wide rules. It is widely believed that this happened because of a post from an r/incels user about legal advice in which he pretended to be asking a “general question about how rapists get caught”.

Some members of Braincels were also self-reported members of the website incels.me (now de- funct), and the more current incels.is or similar non-Reddit websites, where more violent content is posted.

Bolding added, as a reminder that this “topic” was exactly one of DT’s very first topics, about two years ago.

Speaking of his topics and the strong overtones running through his commentary, as mentioned by EA, here are a couple of self-descriptors of incel positions, from their wiki:

Men sexually prefer young women throughout life...

...throughout men's lives, men most prefer women who are 20-23 years old...

Discussion:
It has become commonplace to shame older men for pursuing young women. Such behavior is deemed creepy and perverted.

However, we can see from a male biological perspective it is totally natural, and it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective as young women are more fertile, have a lower rate of STDs and less likely have children from prior men...

https://incels.wiki/w/Scientific_Blackp ... atched_men

Bolding added to note that DT has made identical arguments in support of the idea that his preference for younger women should not be considered creepy: because it is natural, it is evolutionary, they have fewer STDs, and are less likely to have kids.

From the same link, another of DT’s oft repeated opinions.

Women with 5+ lifetime sexual partners have a >21.8% chance of carrying genital herpes

Note the very specific language about women with 5+ lifetime sexual partners, which was exactly the reason for DT’s original title about why half the women are “unattractive” to him.

Continuing with some of DT’s favorite repeated topics, also documented as incel positions, same link:

the preference of women's dating decisions regarding men's income.

We found that ratings of attractiveness were around 1000 times more sensitive to salary for females rating males, compared to males rating females. These results indicate that higher economic status can offset lower physical attractiveness in men much more easily than in women.

And another, virtually identical to his multiple references about why he can’t speak to woman at work due to his harassment concerns:

In a society where even simple measures of flirtation are now penalized and outlawed, it becomes difficult to understand how young people are meant to find romance in natural, real life settings, as men and women have done successfully for centuries before. It seems evident that we are moving towards expectations for more puritanical and sanitized gender interactions than any previous generation in recent history. The fear of sexual advances and assumption that any sexual advance ought to be punished as "harassment" correlates with increasing loneliness, isolation, and celibacy for both genders.

Again, sound familiar? A few more, even less comfortable topics DT has brought up, matched by further descriptions at the sample link:

“ types of responses by the participants represented a desire by them to conform to social norms that strongly prohibit older men being attracted to adolescent girls by downplaying their level of sexual attraction to the younger adolescent girls presented.”

In this next one, DT did not discuss children but rather young teenagers not being harmed by sex with older people. He has made the identical points about overstatedness and resilience, however, many many times:

Not only are men shamed for their natural sexuality, but the harm inflicted by sex acts that involve children has been overstated. There is substantial evidence that children typically respond with resilience to so called "potentially traumatic events".

And DT’s version:

I do want age of consent laws to protect children, but the idea that 16 and 17 year olds can't consent to sex is ridiculous. The law needs to change because consensual sex is not rape

viewtopic.php?p=1110967#p1110967

There is much more to the research, but for now, to me the question is: why are DT’s most oft repeated canards virtually identical to the researched descriptions and self-descriptions of incel positions? Either he has been trolling with hot-button, current topics, or he is the quintessential subject being studied.

[Guest]

In doing some research on where DT might be getting his “topics,” some interesting patterns have emerged.

Lemmie you are completly crazy! I don't visit incel sites . I told you with the power of Google you will always find patterns. With millions of incel comments you will find anything. Crazy!!

However, we can see from a male biological perspective it is totally natural, and it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective as young women are more fertile, have a lower rate of STDs and less likely have children from prior men

I didn't get it from the incels. You did some Google search "Incels defending attraction to younger women" and you got that!

From the same link, another of DT’s oft repeated opinions.

Did you Gooogle "5 lifetime sexual partners incels"??? I got the "5 lifetime sexual partners from here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5795598/ and I bet your incel site doesn't make a reference to that study.

" 5+ lifetime sexual partners have a >21.8% chance of carrying genital herpes 5+ lifetime sexual partners have a >21.8% chance of carrying genital herpes" And the statement is complete nonsense, most people have herpes.

I do want age of consent laws to protect children, but the idea that 16 and 17 year olds can't consent to sex is ridiculous. The law needs to change because consensual sex is not rape

Of course it is not rape if it was consensual, the legal age is 16 in most countries.

here are a couple of self-descriptors of incel positions, from their wiki:

I suspect there are thousands of incel positions all over the internet.

[Guest]

There is much more to the research, but for now, to me the question is: why are DT’s most oft repeated canards virtually identical to the researched descriptions and self-descriptions of incel positions? Either he has been trolling with hot-button, current topics, or he is the quintessential subject being studied.

Look, all you have to do is watch some youtube videos like secular talk, sargon of akkad, TYT, but also read some psychology today, and research studies. You are crazy woman!! I do not I repeat I do not visit or read incel stuff, I only think for myself. "Virtually identical" that is just hillaraous!

And of course you quote me out of context.

[_DoubtingThomas]

I am going to do the same thing and visit extreme femenists site to see where Lemmie gets her information!

Sargoon of Akkad said that femenists love to go after incels. Go do your incel hunt Lemmie, but I am not one of them.

[_EAllusion]

"Sargon of Akkad" is a major alt-rightish, man-o-sphere personality. I remember not that long ago Analytics was recommending DT pick up artist material and I was aghast because you don't recommend someone so obviously vulnerable to that nonsense a gateway into the man-o-sphere and DT was vowing he'd never be like that.

Anyway, contrary to Lemmie, I've taken DT to be sort of reinventing the wheel by coming up with arguments popular in incel-dom because there's just only so many paths available once you've committed to defending certain ideas. Thinking about it now, it's possible he's more crypto-incel than I thought.

[Guest]

"Sargon of Akkad" is a major alt-rightish, man-o-sphere personality. I remember not that long ago Analytics was recommending DT pick up artist material and I was aghast because you don't recommend someone so obviously vulnerable to that nonsense a gateway into the man-o-sphere and DT was vowing he'd never be like that.

You introduced me to the word "incel" and I honestly don't read any of it. I just do my own research.
I don't like Sargon of Akkad much, but he sometimes makes good arguments.

Can you please respond?

"Table 13: Average Age of Fathers in Births by Teen Mothers" California, 2002

Age of Teen Mother
17.
18

Average Father's Age (Unwed)
20.
21

Source: California Center for Health Statistics, 2003

http://recapp.etr.org/recapp/index.cfm? ... eTypeID=18

It is more common than you think. I understand the numbers went down, but I don't think it is very rare.