Impeachment hearings

[Guest]

Doc,

Let’s be very clear here, lest our reality-deniars a la Russian collusion (LTC Vindman testified that the Ukrainian election interference conspiracy theory is a "Russian narrative that Putin has promoted.")

That isn't Gospel to everyone Doc. It is a narrative that has an agenda. And there are all kinds of reasons to believe Ukrainian interference of different stripes, some indirectly yet honestly if you are sincere in approaching this issue of interference, it is noncontroversial, https://www.thenation.com/article/archi ... ions-2016/

decide to deny, well, reality. This morning Ambassador Sondland testified that a quid pro quo deal was ordered by President Trump. Let me repeat:

Sondland testified that there was a quid pro quo deal.

That he presumed that yes, but the whole kerfuckle is up for interpretation. And Jesus, Sondland was not the epitome of straight forward. It is only when a narrative is laid out and bought into that it gets so hard to see other narratives. The key is not to commit yourself to a narrative.

He was ordered by President Trump to work with Giuliani and his indicted associates (Lev Parnas & Igor Fruman) against his wishes.

But to get right into Trump's head we have to make presumptions. And Giuliani has a podcast coming up :)

Amb. Sondland stated that he was treated unfairly by the State Department and White House as they are refusing him access to his emails and phone records. That’s obstruction.

That's not obstruction for God's sake. I hate when you make me repeat right wing talking points, but that separation of powers thing - it just really is a thing.

Sondland was against withholding aid to Ukraine. Sondland believes the only way aid would be released was if President Zelensky made a public statement of opening up investigations into Biden and the supposed Ukrainian 2016 election - I’m inserting this random comment here to show you that our local doorknobs don’t read what we post - interference.

I can read. But I'm not reading INTO everything like you are.

This is in addition to:

President Trump's personal attorney, acting as an enforcer, a rogue element on Trump’s behalf, a workaround, literally a shakedown guy, conducted a smear campaign against an anti-corruption US official, former Ambassador Yovanavitch. Think about that Republicans. That’s the very essence of corruption, to corrupt the system from within for personal gain. Jesus Christ, it’s right in front of your faces.

And like it or not it smells funny, too much work, risk finangling for not so much political gain. As much as you deny it Trump had the smear of Biden already. It was in our press, he would have it for the campaign all he wanted to use it like Hillary's emails and call Biden a crook who belongs in jail. without Ukraine having to make an announcement. He still will probably. The article I post above is an indirect example of corruption, corruption is damned everywhere. But, the exact facts of everything are not.

Finally, former Captain and company commander in the US Army a Vietnam War vet who earned a Bronze Star and an Air Medal with a V device for valor, Amb. Taylor just straight up drew a devastating picture of President Trump pursuing his own personal interests by leveraging military aid for politically motivated investigations against his domestic rivals.

Yes, he drew, he painted he speculated but he is not proof of that straight up fact.

That’s it. That’s the truth. We can’t have a President who does this. Y’all still have Pence who is objectively more zealous than Trump on Conservat

All things are subject to interpretation, whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. - What can I say I got more Nietzsche in me than you.

At the end of the day what would I desire because I know I don't and won't have the truth? The opiod crisis is really a bigger crisis than wars or a bigger deal than the buffoon in the white house rubs you so wrong. It is devastating because it is nihilistic and soul, person, community, relationship destroyer and anniliator. I would rather have that attacked and worked at like we care about our own. And have that buffoon in the white house, than for it to get shelved. That's just one pragmatic thing, one among many. All the Trump is corrupt truth in the world doesn't matter a dime to me if we ignore that and other matters. And please don't say walk and chew gum.

And when we see corruption for what it is, everywhere, and not pretend that we have found one untarnished view of it that we are proudly fighting while it engulfs us from every other direction, we can get pragmatic about truth. And that might actually make a difference. Because your focus that Trump is the diamond example of corruption, when that war is over and victory is claimed , it will only refocus the hills after hills after hills of human corruption that demonstrate all you did was waste resources and energy and spirit over a hill not worth dying on.

The least could be done is wait for a bipartisan issue for Christ sake.

mikwut

[_mikwut]

Morley,

Because I do believe the President can withhold if he sincerely believes he is doing it for reasons of not feeding corruption and motivating other countries to pay as well.

The Biden motivation is the only corrupt motivation I can see.

mikwut

[_honorentheos]

mikwut -

The House managers pointed out that the withholding of a meeting in the Oval Office, discussed in the phone call, was abuse of power. The meeting is an official act, it's purpose that of furthering US interests.

To withhold the meeting on condition of Ukraine announcing an investigation of Trump's political rival for reasons only of benefit to the political career of the President was an abuse of power.

Fair?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I see Mikwut hasn’t read the Mueller report, either. I’m not really sure how much more you can “F” up your reputation right now, but something tells me you’re not done trying, counselor.

Hrm... I wonder if I should just start communicating with conservos through the Picture Exchange Communication System?

- Doc

[_mikwut]

Doc,

The Mueller Report I have read over twice and gone back to in smaller batches several times. Are you making that in response to Ukraine interference?

Honor,

Fair?

If taken in isolation of any other factors yes.

I just don't know how the intentions are isolated so neatly like that. Every president is a political figure and there political motivations are a constant factor in decision making, but so is the country, so is finances, so is a whole host of other motivations. There are plausible other motivations.

mikwut

[_MissTish]

BREAKING NYT: Trump told Bolton in August “that he wanted to continue freezing $391 million in security assistance to Ukraine until officials there helped with investigations into Democrats including the Bidens,” according to Bolton’s unpublished manuscript

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/26/us/p ... raine.html



I cannot wait for the GOP senators excuses to not call him to testify.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Normally, I’d guess Mikwut feels a bit silly right now, but you know...

Also, he’s lying about reading the report.

- Doc

[_Morley]

BREAKING NYT: Trump told Bolton in August “that he wanted to continue freezing $391 million in security assistance to Ukraine until officials there helped with investigations into Democrats including the Bidens,” according to Bolton’s unpublished manuscript

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/26/us/p ... raine.html



I cannot wait for the GOP senators excuses to not call him to testify.

Thank you for this news, Tish.


I'm not encouraged by this paragraph:

The book presents an outline of what Mr. Bolton might testify to if he is called as a witness in the Senate impeachment trial, the people said. The White House could use the pre-publication review process, which has no set time frame, to delay or even kill the book’s publication or omit key passages.

[_mikwut]

Hi Doc,

So, crow I will eat whenever necessary to eat, as I already posted I was about 80% ,now I am about 90%. And I have read the report anytime you want to discuss I'm wanting.

But silly? The timing was bad I admit, and it does take another ten percent on the chin like I said, but I gotta hella of a chin before silly :)

To not upset you too much how does Miss Tish's Times Post separate out the President's motivations. It seems to provide them as clearly as ever. The President really believed 16 Ukrainian election interference and he could be meaning more than the server he could be including Manafort and Chalupa. He seemed to really believe Rudy's conspiracy theories. And he really seemed to believe corruption involving the Biden's. So if he really believed those things his intent and motive is pure, its his judgment that's off, is being wrong, misinformed a mistake or an impeachable offense?

mikwut

[_canpakes]

ETA: Or maybe I am missing the distinction that your making about knowing about the hold and knowing about terms?

Pretty much, and that’s illustrating the earlier point of why your distinction on when the Ukranians knew that aid would be withheld until Trump’s terms were met (at least until the wider public became aware of the requirement) is irrelevant.

A parallel example: a student is accepted at university, and applies for aid, which is approved, contingent on maintaining a 3.5 GPA.
(1) The student believes that they will begin the academic year and work towards meeting that requirement, but that aid will be available immediately, being as that it has been ‘approved’ but contingent upon an ongoing requirement.
(2) Meanwhile, the lender isn’t going to cut an aid check until some evidence of meeting the requirement is available, which cannot happen until the student completes a semester’s work averaging a 3.5 GPA.

Applying your argument to this scenario, you would be trying to argue that the lender’s requirement - and intent to disburse aid after seeing ‘results’ - really doesn’t exist, and that aid would have been disbursed regardless, because the student didn’t assume that they’d need to meet the lender’s requirement immediately.

Of course, this still is irrelevant:

The larger issue is not when the Ukrainians became aware of the hold or for whatever reason. This is irrelevant. What matters is that Trump attempted to extract bogus official announcements and ‘investigations’ from the Ukrainians, and demanded internally that the hold be initiated.

No one is asking you to argue the entire case; rather, just to toss aside your irrelevant distraction in favor of other facts and testimony in the case that completely confirm the statement immediately above.