Impeachment hearings

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_Gunnar
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Gunnar »

moksha wrote:Trump is the foremost lying President, so it should come as no surprise that his defense consists not only of lies but rather clumsy lies. This, of course, is like a mother's lullaby to a bunch of tired and cranky Republican Senators.

I accept that analogy as well, just like a mother's lullaby often consists of soothing noises and nonsense syllables that don't necessarily have to make any sense, but are only intended to lull the baby into sleep.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Gunnar
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Gunnar »

If despite all expectations 20 Republican Senators cross over and vote for conviction, giving the required 2/3 majority, I wonder how many of the remaining 33 Republicans would fear their reelection chances would be in jeopardy, for having voted for acquittal, the next time they are up for reelection. Or would it more likely be that the 20 cross-overs would be in jeopardy?

I also wonder how Chief Justice Roberts would vote if he were allowed by the Constitution to do so. He is presumably a fair minded and very intelligent man. Surely he must see how compelling the case against Trump is, and how weak and deliberately deceptive the case for the defense is by comparison, and he has been known to publicly rebuke Trump. Though, by law, it would be inappropriate for him to publicly express it under these circumstances, I would bet he has a strong opinion on what the verdict should be by now, and, given his strong moral and religious convictions, I doubt that opinion would be favorable to Trump.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_subgenius
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _subgenius »

Cippollone dunked hard on the Democrats Impeachment managers with his closing video clip accentuated by "you were right".
Geez what a schiff-show Pelosi has mired Democrats in.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

subgenius wrote:Cippollone dunked hard on the Democrats Impeachment managers with his closing video clip accentuated by "you were right".
Geez what a schiff-show Pelosi has mired Democrats in.


k
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_DarkHelmet
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _DarkHelmet »

Kittens_and_Jesus wrote:
MeDotOrg wrote:=
Travel way back in time, mikwut, to the prehistory of 8 B.T. (before Trump). Our President was born in Kenya, educated on a Madrassa, a secret Muslim, hates white people, gives his wife a terrorist fist bump, wears tan suits, is a disciple of S.D.S. leader Bill Ayers, and plans secret "Death Panels" for Obamacare. Oh, and Ted Nugent was supposed to have been jailed by the President Obama in his second term.


Don't forget Jade Helm 15 and FEMA deathcamps...


And dijon mustard. That was a huge scandal. I first heard about the FEMA camps from my teenage son. He went through a right-wing conspiracy phase. He got mad at me for rolling my eyes while he was explaining it. He's an adult now and is embarassed by the things he used to believe.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
_Icarus
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Icarus »

subgenius wrote:Cippollone dunked hard on the Democrats Impeachment managers with his closing video clip accentuated by "you were right".
Geez what a schiff-show Pelosi has mired Democrats in.



Cippollone... you mean that lawyer who should be disbarred?

Consider the following American Bar Association Model Rules of Professional Conduct Rule 3.3(1):

"A lawyer shall not knowingly make a false statement of fact or law to a tribunal or fail to correct a false statement of material fact or law previously made to the tribunal by the lawyer."

The Seven Lies of Pat Cipollone

But yeah, he sure did throw some red meat out there for Trump's rabid base.
"One of the hardest things for me to accept is the fact that Kevin Graham has blonde hair, blue eyes and an English last name. This ugly truth blows any arguments one might have for actual white supremacism out of the water. He's truly a disgrace." - Ajax
_EAllusion
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _EAllusion »

Gunnar wrote:If despite all expectations 20 Republican Senators cross over and vote for conviction, giving the required 2/3 majority, I wonder how many of the remaining 33 Republicans would fear their reelection chances would be in jeopardy, for having voted for acquittal, the next time they are up for reelection.


It's probably far more dangerous to their reelection changes to vote to convict than it is to vote to acquit. The latter will have a mild impact to no impact at all while the former probably would depress their Republican support enough to be a potentially serious issue.
_canpakes
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _canpakes »

mikwut wrote:I don't understand how minimizing referring to the President from the beginning of his first term, as traitor to this country, and it is false, doesn't deserve very strong replies and rebuke. It does. There are valid criticisms that can be made like the President going too broad in attempt to puritanize the press, but for the press to not clean up its own house is not something I accept.

... the general public in a Democratic Republic voted him into office and the Press refers to him as traitor and Puppet of Putin. That vile accusation in a country like ours was indeed unproven yet the press continually attempted to foist that charge on the "people".

mikwut, yours is the expected indignant rationalization of bad behavior for one party in this dynamic, while lambasting the other. However, this is arguing a juvenile perspective, rationalizing the crappiest possible behavior from a man who sits at the top of our government, in a unique position of power and publicity unmatched by any other entity. And the best you can do here is to say that because some folks called him names, that he is justified in making a continuous public spectacle of accusation, exaggeration, lies, insults, and tantrums, being continually bent to portray his Office as one of butthurt vindictiveness controlled by an emotionally-stunted man-baby.

Again, I'd refer back to the example of the previous Administration, in which President Blackenstein was the continual target of the self-identified Most Popular Cable News Channel in the Nation for 8 years (more than twice as long as Trump has endured the press so far). That network hosted commentator after commentator accusing that President of open racism towards whites, unchecked hostility, a foreign-sourced agenda ('a.k.a. 'traitor'), of being a secret Muslim in religion and sympathy, un-American, a literal foreigner who did not deserve to be President, and - in one case - voiced the opinion that he should be literally arrested for criticizing Trump (Dobbs). In the midst of this, how did Evil President Barack Hooo-sain Obama react? Was it anything even remotely like the immature twitter-rants and public tantrums voiced by the current occupier of the office?

Geez, how the hell did Obama ever hold it together? All I can say is that I'm glad that he was able to exhibit the kind of grace that our current Prez is incapable of displaying under any circumstances.



mikwut wrote:
And then you liken legitimate complaints against the President’s behavior as accusing him of being a pedophile? Hmm.

Likened to in taint and seriousness. I likened it to falsely calling him a traitor. And I stand by it. What is the legitimate complaint you are referring to because I was analogizing it with traitor to his country.

Sorry, mikwut, that dog won't hunt. You know that the word, 'traitor', can carry a scope of meaning ranging from simple disagreement, to more serious pejorative implications of disloyalty, to a literal legal definition. The same cannot be said for the term, 'pedophile'. There is no comparing the two in intent and effect.

Did you see any legal accusations of 'traitor' leveled at Trump in the impeachment hearings? No?

Even as that's the case, I don't take too much offense from a situation wherein some folks called Trump a 'traitor', in the pejorative sense. The man stood on stage and publicly rebuked, to an international audience, the efforts of multiple government intelligence operations and their personnel - folks who have arguably put more of their life and effort into protecting this country than Trump ever has or will - by siding with the dictator running a country that has been our ideological and military opponent for decades. While Trump could have had disagreements with the idea that the Russians attempted interference within the process, voicing his dissent in that way, with that audience, was not the correct way to voice his flippant dismissal of those conclusions, and to the apparent joy of Putin. Simply put, that act displayed an outstanding amount of public disloyalty to the process and its people, and that can arguably be termed 'traitorous' in the pejorative.


mikwut wrote:Then hysteria you say?!??! Hysteria?!?!?? I am the one who posted about hysteria? I did not produce hysteria. I posted against it. This is a madhouse sometimes. He is not puppet of Putin Ok. That is hysteria. He is a lot of critical things. But he is not that. That is hysteria. It is bufoonery.


Great examples of hysteria and buffoonery can be seen at any Trump 'rally'. Watch the guy behind the podium, and listen carefully to what he says. In the meantime, this also approaches hysteria and buffoonery:
... the media did indeed flout such divisive rhetorical devices as the President is a puppet of Putin, a literal traitor to his country the equivalent in politics of being called a pedophile extensively, relentlessly for over two years and had no evidence to be publicly making such accusations.

It'd seem that what you're incensed about is exactly the sort of behavior promoted - in spades and every day, from the highest pulpit in the land - by the fellow you're defending as 'justified' for doing so.

Anyhow ... Maybe someday, the country won't be headed up by an emotionally-stunted individual bent on turning politics and the public discourse into what we see in a banana republic. Maybe someday, the nation will once again see leadership from someone who does not feel a need to run 'rallies' where he appeals solely to a limited portion of the voting population, feeds them rage, spreads falsehoods and outright lies, insults folks who he disagrees with, and calls out for the arrest of folks who are political opponents. Hey, maybe someday we'll even see someone in charge that doesn't openly praise dictators, side publicly with the Russians against our own intelligence service, and who isn't so fearful and brazen as to try to coerce foreign nations into manufacturing 'scandals' against other Americans for the sake of his own political convenience... all while tweeting out asinine public rants and insults 30 times a day on his cell.


You can continue to defend that kind of behavior. I can't join you in that work.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/28/politics ... index.html

Law professor Alan Dershowitz, who is a member of President Donald Trump's impeachment defense team, said in 2016 that he believed Trump was more corrupt than Hillary Clinton and more likely to continue being corrupt as president.

...

Dershowitz was highly critical of Trump during the 2016 election. NBC News reported on Sunday that in a 2016 book, the law professor called him a "destabilizing and unpredictable candidate" who "openly embraces fringe conspiracy theories peddled by extremists."

Dershowitz repeatedly criticized Trump for not disavowing the alt-right movement and worried Trump would "embolden and strengthen" fascist elements in society.

"I think he's a canny politician and he knows he can't win this election without the alt right -- without getting people to vote for him, whose views he disapproves of. But he hasn't had the courage to really stand up to the alt right in the way he should," he said on The Jamie Weinstein Show in 2016. I'm adding these last three paragraphs to underscore the point that the President' supporters on this board are unlikely to read this far and thus continue cozily ensconced in their respective bubbles.

"There is a kind of fascist mentality in the world today. I don't worry that Donald Trump will try to govern that way. I do worry that he will embolden and strengthen some of the fascist elements in our society," added Dershowitz.


- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Some Schmo
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Re: Impeachment hearings

Post by _Some Schmo »

I swear that the main reason the left is accused of making all kinds of crap up about Trump is that the right-wing-craze-o-sphere is exceptionally familiar with that strategy, having employed it for all of Obama's 8 years.

They are full of crap, and as such, think everyone else is too. Of course you must be lying about Trump. That's the strategy, isn't it? Lie about the other party's leader?

This country is divided... because you can't trust Trump voters to tell the truth or operate in good faith. They whine about a divided country while demonstrably slicing it in half.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
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