Three Powerful Books

[_honorentheos]

First, you should acknowledge you posted the sentiment first, suggesting that lack of God belief places limits on what a person is free to explore.

Yes, I believe that this is true. You are not free to explore those things that others would consider to be accessible through the spirit. For example, reading the Scriptures with real intent seeking to access the word and will of God. You are not free to do that at this point because your other beliefs won’t allow you to do so with a humble heart seeking Christ. You have chains which bind you from learning and accessing the word of God through the scriptures and the teachings of the prophets. You see this area of exploration as being unproductive and probably a waste of time.

See the example of comet myths for why this isn't the freedom you portray it to be.

On the other hand, any of the explorations that I feel motivated to investigate outside of religious and/or spiritual exploration I am free to do so without constraints. If have the desire and motivation to do so. My religious beliefs don’t keep me from reading, learning, and experiencing the world with a sense of wonder.

Again, see the comet example. Your a priori beliefs narrow your ability to actually explore this information in any way other than as slaves to your prior belief system. You read about information theory, for example, and try to bend it to align with Mormonism because you aren't free to open your mind to what it's proposing.

Everything, science, art, social interactions, every moment of your life is a slave to this narrowed and restricted worldview. You aren't more free because you believe there are valid options on the table that aren't supported by real evidence. Instead, you are expending energy and thought in refabricating what you read INTO evidence for your prior belief.

Look at information theory in our discussion above. Which of our interactions with it have been the most open to what it suggests about the universe? Whose a priori beliefs led to misunderstandings of it that made it into something contradictory to itself?

You were not more free. You were misguided and got almost everything wrong. And being wrong is it's own kind of prison when it comes to having freedom to discover and learn. Arrogantly insisting one is right while being wrong is a curse I don't wish on anyone but here you are.

[Guest]

And being wrong is it's own kind of prison when it comes to having freedom to discover and learn. Arrogantly insisting one is right while being wrong is a curse I don't wish on anyone but here you are.

At the end of the day it is a matter of who is right and who is wrong, isn’t it? What worries me about the fact that more and more people such as yourself are running about is that over the long haul you and your kind could become a majority. If this were to take place, life as we have known it and the freedoms that we enjoy would be in jeopardy. Here me out...or for a better voice than mine...listen to this full speech given by Jeffrey Holland a few years ago at Chapman University in California. The meaty part of the address begins a bit after the eight minute mark and continues to the end.

In the here and now and in individual situations, lives based upon secularism may not be injurious to society as a whole. But that day may very well come if some worrisome trends continue. And that, my friend, is what concerns me when I communicate with those such as yourself. The agnostic/atheist crowd does not hold up well for the overall health, progress, and development of a free and open society.

If this doesn’t start around the eight minute mark you’ll have to rewind/back it up...

https://youtu.be/Ol9lzCG7E7k

Nothing against you personally and your right to non-belief in God (one that has laws and expectations for humanity), but everything to do with your kind becoming the norm rather than what still is an anomaly/minority.

The long term ramifications of being wrong are catastrophic.

Regards,
MG

[_Lemmie]

What worries me about the fact that more and more people such as yourself are running about is that over the long haul you and your kind could become a majority. If this were to take place, life as we have known it and the freedoms that we enjoy would be in jeopardy. Here me out...or for a better voice than mine...listen to this full speech given by Jeffrey Holland....

Wow. I was trying to think of a more generous response to this offensive nonsense about "you and your kind," but it's a beautiful day and my husband wants me to come listen to the beautiful song sparrows holding forth in our yard. They are tiny but their songs are magnificent, so this is all this bizarre rant is going to get:

Welcome, mentalgymnast, to the world. Peace to all, and may everyone find their path! After all, those tinfoil hats won't wear themselves, will they?

[Guest]

And being wrong is it's own kind of prison when it comes to having freedom to discover and learn. Arrogantly insisting one is right while being wrong is a curse I don't wish on anyone but here you are.

At the end of the day it is a matter of who is right and who is wrong, isn’t it?

In a sense, but not in the way you portray it.

I'm for pluralism. Why? Because certitude is fatal to progress and anti-democratic. So in a sense, I believe it matters that I'm right about beating back your (broadly speaking, not just you individually) misguided sense of correctness so that there is more tolerance for differing views and a flourishing of ideas and expression.

As to the narrow question are you right or am I about the specific topics in this thread? Nothing could be more meaningless. A hundred years from now, no one will care and we will both have released our hold on a given quantity to matter and energy back to the system.

[_honorentheos]

Welcome, mentalgymnast, to the world. Peace to all, and may everyone find their path! After all, those tinfoil hats won't wear themselves, will they?

ETA: I wonder what demographic data MG looked at when he imagined there is a majority that shares his views?

[_Themis]

Faith is a position of heart and mind. That is a difficult if not impossible thing for a strict materialist to wrap their mind around and accept as being a valid position.

Regards,
MG

It's not a valid position for the simple reason the faith you used to come to certain positions is the same faith others used to come to completely different positions or positions in conflict with everyone you have come up with.

[_Morley]

Wow.

Indeed.

I spent this thread on the sidelines, but once again granting the benefit of the doubt. More fool me. I seem to never learn.

[_Morley]

Well done, honorentheos.

[_mentalgymnast]

What worries me about the fact that more and more people such as yourself are running about is that over the long haul you and your kind could become a majority. If this were to take place, life as we have known it and the freedoms that we enjoy would be in jeopardy. Here me out...or for a better voice than mine...listen to this full speech given by Jeffrey Holland....

Wow. I was trying to think of a more generous response to this offensive nonsense about "you and your kind...

I have no concern about offending your sensibilities. If you listen to Holland’s address he is hitting the nail on the head. The secularists/agnostics/atheists, over time, are a danger to the fabric of life as we have known it.

Those that call good evil and call evil good.

If there are assertions/point of fact references that he makes that you take issue with, by all means, do so.

Regards,
MG

[_Philo Sofee]

:rolleyes: Jeffrey Holland.... just another bias windbag.