I think we will have to agree to disagree on this point.
Granted, there is some importance to this pivot point. Things can swing one way or the other based on your views in this regard.
Regards,
MG
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this point.
Shulem wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:15 pm
Jeff,
The Book of Abraham text directly states that the sacrifices mentioned therein were performed in the land of Chaldea on an altar designed specifically for human sacrifice. The plain of Olishem was designated as the place where the sacrifices of Egyptian custom took place. But there is a problem with the narrative of the text (Abraham 1:10) and the vignette of Facsimile No. 1 which provides Abraham’s own illustration of the Abrahamic sacrifice mentioned in the text of verse 12. They do not agree. There are clear contradictions between Olishem being yonder in another quarter of land outside of Egypt and the location designated in the iconographic symbolism of Facsimile No. 1 of “Abraham in Egypt” according to Facsimile No. 1, Fig. 10.
I would like to discuss those differences with you, Jeff. I think it can be shown that Smith’s narrative in the text does not match the iconographic symbolism of the vignette in which he attempted to connect to his story in the Book of Abraham.
Has this ever raised any level of concern with you, Jeff?
Sincerely,
Shulem
Jeff Lindsay wrote:
The name of the king is...
_Wonhyo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:12 pmShulem,
I have no academic understanding of the Book of Abraham at all, other than that I know it isn’t a literal translation of the papyri. I know there are anachronisms in the Book of Abraham narrative that render the story, itself, non-historical. And the explanations of the facsimiles are just plain incorrect, indefensibly incorrect.
Nonetheless, I think the Book of Abraham is such a fascinating piece of Mormon scripture. Parts of it register with me, even though I don’t accept it as accurate history. The facsimiles (and the extant papyrus) function best for me when I remember that the Book of Abraham is really a kind modern midrash.
If I’m wrong on my understanding of what a midrash is, I apologize in advance. But when I think of a midrash, I think of a scribe or an author interacting with some kind of text or artifact (like a papyrus) and, as a result, producing a new text that may or may not be historically valuable, but that may provide relevant religious commentary or narrative. (Granted, in Jewish midrashic tradition, rabbis were at least able to read and understand the source material, the Torah. Whereas in Joseph Smith’s case he couldn’t read the papyri and had to deliver the content of the Book of Abraham blindly and gradually over a period of years.)
Part of me is embarrassed to no end by the facsimiles. And part of me really hopes they don’t ever remove the facsimiles so that as our maturity about the Book of Abraham continues to develop, we continue to acknowledge the book’s midrashic nature.
Pretty much, yes. Although I’m also willing to accept that the Lord revealed true doctrine to Joseph during this process. It sounds like this individual is also open to that.Shulem wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:11 pm
MG,
I received the following reply from a poster on the old Mormon Discussion (Terrestrial Forum) wherein a believer of the Book of Abraham seems to support the angle you’ve expressed to me. I think you will find this exchange interesting. This person has come to terms that the Book of Abraham is not a literal translation of the papyri. This probably is based on the fact that modern Egyptology has also come to that same conclusion. As you know, in Smith’s day, the language was a dead language and therefore anyone was able to comment on what they thought the language meant without being scientifically proven wrong. But thanks to the Rosetta Stone and the hard work of Champollion and other linguists, the Egyptian language was finally cracked. By 1912 the Church was faced with serious contention from scholars who publicly challenged Smith’s translations and church scholars began to question how to tackle these latest revelations that threatened Smith’s credibility as a translator.
Do you find the following ideas in harmony with your current beliefs or ideas of how Smith processed a nonconventional translation of Egyptian hieroglyphic writing and images?
_Wonhyo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:12 pmShulem,
I have no academic understanding of the Book of Abraham at all, other than that I know it isn’t a literal translation of the papyri. I know there are anachronisms in the Book of Abraham narrative that render the story, itself, non-historical. And the explanations of the facsimiles are just plain incorrect, indefensibly incorrect.
Nonetheless, I think the Book of Abraham is such a fascinating piece of Mormon scripture. Parts of it register with me, even though I don’t accept it as accurate history. The facsimiles (and the extant papyrus) function best for me when I remember that the Book of Abraham is really a kind modern midrash.
If I’m wrong on my understanding of what a midrash is, I apologize in advance. But when I think of a midrash, I think of a scribe or an author interacting with some kind of text or artifact (like a papyrus) and, as a result, producing a new text that may or may not be historically valuable, but that may provide relevant religious commentary or narrative. (Granted, in Jewish midrashic tradition, rabbis were at least able to read and understand the source material, the Torah. Whereas in Joseph Smith’s case he couldn’t read the papyri and had to deliver the content of the Book of Abraham blindly and gradually over a period of years.)
Part of me is embarrassed to no end by the facsimiles. And part of me really hopes they don’t ever remove the facsimiles so that as our maturity about the Book of Abraham continues to develop, we continue to acknowledge the book’s midrashic nature.
MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:55 pmMight we consider the possibility that all the hoopla in regards to the Book of Abraham controversy may be unnecessary? We are living with the results of a possibly mistaken canonization of this serialization project in the early Times and Seasons that may have been looking for ways to up its subscription base? The Book of Abraham may have been more or less a midrash or riff from the mind of Joseph Smith?
Except for a few doctrinal teachings that seem to find their roots in the Book of Abraham there seems to be little use, comparatively speaking, of the Book of Abraham in the modern church. Or the JST for that matter. And it was never canonized.
Now if I’m wrong and I find out at some later date that there was no mistake about it, the Book of Abraham was authoritative scripture that was canonized as a direct result of revelation from God, then so be it. But I’m open to the possibility that because of whatever mitigating factors may have been going on back in the later 1800’s when this canonization occurred, there may have been a mistake made…and we are living with the results of that….then, it is what it is.
Regards,
MG
President N. Eldon Tanner wrote:President Kimball has asked me to read a very important resolution for your sustaining vote. At a meeting of the Council of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve held in the Salt Lake Temple on March 25, 1976, approval was given to add to the Pearl of Great Price the two following revelations:
First, a vision of the celestial kingdom given to Joseph Smith, the Prophet, in the Kirtland Temple, on January 21, 1836, which deals with the salvation of those who die without a knowledge of the gospel.
And second, a vision given to President Joseph F. Smith in Salt Lake City, Utah, on October 3, 1918, showing the visit of the Lord Jesus Christ in the spirit world and setting forth the doctrine of the redemption of the dead.
It is proposed that we sustain and approve this action and adopt these revelations as part of the standard works of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All in favor manifest it. Contrary, if there be any, by the same sign. Thank you. President Kimball, the voting seems to be unanimous in the affirmative.
Elder Henry D. Taylor of First Quorum of Seventy wrote: Search the Scriptures
As Latter-day Saints we accept the following scriptures as the standard works of the Church: the Bible (consisting of the Old Testament and the New Testament), the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and official statements made by our leaders.
<snip>
The Pearl of Great Price presently contains “a selection from the revelations, translations, and narrations of Joseph Smith”, which includes: First, eight chapters known as the book of Moses. The material contained in the first chapter was revealed in June 1830. The materials in the next seven chapters were revealed in December 1830. Second is the book of Abraham, which consists of five chapters. These were the writings of Abraham and also of Joseph of Egypt. They were translated by Joseph Smith from two rolls of papyrus that were found in coffins with four mummies and were discovered in the catacombs of Egypt by Antonio Sebolo, a celebrated French traveler, in 1831.
Third, in the Pearl of Great Price are the writings of Joseph Smith, taken mainly from his history. Then fourth, the Articles of Faith, taken from the letter the Prophet wrote to John Wentworth, who wished to furnish the information to a friend who was writing a history of the state of New Hampshire.
New scriptures have recently been added to the Pearl of Great Price. At the last general conference, held in April 1976, President Tanner made this announcement:
“President Kimball has asked me to read a very important resolution for your sustaining vote. At a meeting of the Council of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve held in the Salt Lake Temple on March 25, 1976, approval was given to add to the Pearl of Great Price the following two revelations:
“First, a vision of the celestial kingdom given to Joseph Smith, the Prophet, in the Kirtland Temple, on January 21, 1836, which deals with the salvation of those who die without a knowledge of the gospel.
“And second, a vision given to President Joseph F. Smith in Salt Lake City, Utah, on October 3, 1918, showing the visit of the Lord Jesus Christ in the spirit world [between His crucifixion and resurrection] and setting forth the doctrine of the redemption of the dead.” (Ensign, May 1976, p. 19.)
Yesterday as we sustained the General Authorities we sustained designated ones as prophets, seers, and revelators. We firmly believe that they receive revelations from the Lord. President Lee has said: “In this day the scriptures are the purest at their source, just as the waters were purest at the mountain source; the purest word of God, and that least apt to be polluted, is that which comes from the lips of the living prophets who are set up to guide Israel in our own day and time.”
We should search the scriptures and ponder over the truths contained in them, for they are the words leading to eternal life.
I bear solemn testimony that inspired men are leading the Church today. Let us hearken to their voices and obey their teachings, for which I pray, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.
Joseph Smith wrote:Joseph Smith, History, May 16,1842; p. 1333,1334
Monday 16. I was transacting business at the Store until 10 o’clock A.M.
then at home. In the afternoon at the printing office in Council with Brothers Young
Kimball and Richards, and others, I published in this day’s “Times and Seasons”
“A Fac simile from the Book of Abraham No 3.
1. Abraham sitting upon Pharoah’s throne by the politeness of the king; with a crown upon his head, representing the Priesthood; as emblematical of the grand presidency in heaven, with the scepter of justice, and judgment in his hand. 2 King Pharaoh; whose name is given in the characters above his head. 3. Signifies Abraham, in Egypt; referring to Abraham, as given in the 9th. No. of the Times and Seasons. 4. Prince of Pharoah, King of Egypt; as written above the hand. 5. Shulem; one of the King’s principal waiters; as represented by the characters above his hand. 6. Olimlah; a slave belonging to the Prince. Abraham is reasoning upon the principles of Astronomy, in the Kings Court.
Several of the most widely circulated papers are beginning to exhibit Mormonism in its true light The first cut of a Fac simile from the Book of Abraham, has been republished both in the New York Herald, and in the Dollar Weekly Bostonian, as well as in the Boston Daily Ledger, Edited by Mr. Bartlett; together with the translation from the Book of Abraham.