Climate Change

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canpakes
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Re: Climate Change

Post by canpakes »

Cultellus wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:46 am
If you can’t see that hypocrisy and credibility are an issue in climate discussions, then you ain’t serious.

It will never matter what the science is or whether it is indisputable if we tell some people to suck it up and pay more for less and tell some people they can have more and pay less.

Examples are always useful.

Earlier, you mentioned the possible inconvenience and/or discomfort of being told that you couldn’t idle your car at student pickup as an example of the unfairness of the climate change debate. That’s one example; do you have others that you’d like to discuss that illustrate some people sucking it up to pay more for less while telling others that they can have more and pay less?
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canpakes
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Re: Climate Change

Post by canpakes »

Cultellus wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:38 am
canpakes wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:59 am
Examples are always useful.

Earlier, you mentioned the possible inconvenience and/or discomfort of being told that you couldn’t idle your car at student pickup as an example of the unfairness of the climate change debate. That’s one example; do you have others that you’d like to discuss that illustrate some people sucking it up to pay more for less while telling others that they can have more and pay less?
Panny, that is not what I said.
I’ll lift the words from your earlier post and would ask the same question: is this an example of telling some people to suck it up and to pay more for less while telling others that they can have more and pay less?

I’m asking for examples of that problem, from your perspective. If this isn’t on that list, what are some of the things that are?
The real issue is that care of the planet is an economic football of sorts and that the cost of caring for the planet is not shared practically or equally. The BS is people making crap up about their feelings and nonsense and then wondering why people like me think they are just obnoxious. For example, at my daughter's school some parents want the pickup line/curb to be a no idling zone and they want the school to monitor this BS. Well, the same parents can't get upset when people tell them to pound sand.
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Morley
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Re: Climate Change

Post by Morley »

Cultellus wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:46 am
If you can’t see that hypocrisy and credibility are an issue in climate discussions, then you ain’t serious.

It will never matter what the science is or whether it is indisputable if we tell some people to suck it up and pay more for less and tell some people they can have more and pay less.
( bolding mine)

In which human endeavors do we not ask this of people? I don’t get your point.
.
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Moksha
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Re: Climate Change

Post by Moksha »

Ceeboo, what do you think about the average global temperature going up?
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Chap
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Re: Climate Change

Post by Chap »

Morley wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:55 am
Cultellus wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:46 am
If you can’t see that hypocrisy and credibility are an issue in climate discussions, then you ain’t serious.

It will never matter what the science is or whether it is indisputable if we tell some people to suck it up and pay more for less and tell some people they can have more and pay less.
( bolding mine)

In which human endeavors do we not ask this of people? I don’t get your point.
.
What does the guy you quote mean?

It seems to be something like: "It doesn't matter if all the scientific evidence points to the need for urgent action now to make sure that our children have at least a half-decent world to live in. If I don't find your way of talking about this situation to my taste, then so far as I am concerned the planet can go to hell in a hand-cart."

That simply makes no sense. Whoops, not allowed to say that, counta' his being so sensitive and all ...
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Re: Climate Change

Post by Chap »

Meanwhile, this is where we are:


Children set for more climate disasters than their grandparents, research shows
Climate crisis brings stark intergenerational injustice but rapid emission cuts can limit damage

People born today will suffer many times more extreme heatwaves and other climate disasters over their lifetimes than their grandparents, research has shown.

The study is the first to assess the contrasting experience of climate extremes by different age groups and starkly highlights the intergenerational injustice posed by the climate crisis.

The analysis showed that a child born in 2020 will endure an average of 30 extreme heatwaves in their lifetime, even if countries fulfil their current pledges to cut future carbon emissions. That is seven times more heatwaves than someone born in 1960.

Today’s babies will also grow up to experience twice as many droughts and wildfires and three times more river floods and crop failures than someone who is 60 years old today.

However, rapidly cutting global emissions to keep global heating to 1.5C would almost halve the heatwaves today’s children will experience, while keeping under 2C would reduce the number by a quarter.

A vital task of the UN’s Cop26 climate summit in Glasgow in November is to deliver pledges of bigger emissions cuts from the most polluting countries and climate justice will be an important element of the negotiations. Developing countries, and the youth strike protesters who have taken to the streets around the world, point out that those who did least to cause the climate crisis are suffering the most.

“Our results highlight a severe threat to the safety of young generations and call for drastic emission reductions to safeguard their future,” said Prof Wim Thiery, at Vrije Universiteit Brussel in Belgium and who led the research. He said people under 40 today were set to live “unprecedented” lives, ie suffering heatwaves, droughts, floods and crop failures that would have been virtually impossible – 0.01% chance – without global heating.

Dr Katja Frieler, at the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research in Germany and part of the study team, said: “The good news is we can take much of the climate burden from our children’s shoulders if we limit warming to 1.5C by phasing out fossil fuel use. This is a huge opportunity.”

Leo Hickman, editor of Carbon Brief, said: “These new findings reinforce our 2019 analysis which showed that today’s children will need to emit eight times less CO2 over the course of their lifetime than their grandparents, if global warming is to be kept below 1.5C. Climate change is already exacerbating many injustices, but the intergenerational injustice of climate change is particularly stark.”

The research, published in the journal Science, combined extreme event projections from sophisticated computer climate models, detailed population and life expectancy data, and global temperature trajectories from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

The scientists said the increases in climate impacts calculated for today’s young people were likely to be underestimates, as multiple extremes within a year had to be grouped together and the greater intensity of events was not accounted for.

There was significant regional variation in the results. For example, the 53 million children born in Europe and central Asia between 2016 and 2020 will experience about four times more extreme events in their lifetimes under current emissions pledges, but the 172 million children of the same age in sub-Saharan Africa face 5.7 times more extreme events.

“​​This highlights a disproportionate climate change burden for young generations in the global south,” the researchers said.

Dohyeon Kim, an activist from South Korea who took part in the global climate strike on Friday, said: “Countries of the global north need to push governments to put justice and equity at the heart of climate action, both in terms of climate [aid] and setting more ambitious pledges that take into consideration historical responsibilities.”

The analysis found that only those aged under 40 years today will live to see the consequences of the choices made on emissions cuts. Those who are older will have died before the impacts of those choices become apparent in the world.
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ceeboo
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Re: Climate Change

Post by ceeboo »

Gad, Gunnar, Cakes, and Moksha,

I am going to reply to all of you in this reply, because, unfortunately, my free time is limited today.

Yes, it is obvious that humans have played - and continue yo play - a large role in climate change (global warming.) I have never implied otherwise. But, that has nothing - absolutely nothing - to do with any of the posts I have made in this thread. It makes me wonder why I have been asked all the questions I have in this thread, but I'm fairly sure that I know why.

The very first post in this thread was posted by me. Below, I am going to paste the OP and the first reply in the thread.

The OP - "Are Republicans still doing their best to deny climate change?"

The first reply in the thread (mine) "Are Democrats still beating their spouses?"

Does the OP and/or my reply suggest anything to you about what I was thinking? Do you think I was providing proof that I was a "science denier?"

Or, is it possible that I was illustrating how many extremely complex issues that we face today (like global warming/climate change) are never really discussed but rather, they are politicized and weaponized so they can be used to beat their political "opponents" over the head. Reasonable and balanced minded people (no matter what their political ideologies happen to be) all fully understand that climate change is real and that we ought to start seriously trying to find reasonable solutions to this issue (Not completely insane proposals.)

In my mind, it is very common and easy for people to gather around and collectively acknowledge/support that there is a problem. Solving the issue/problem is an entirely different thing and it's far less common and it's difficult. Entirely!

The OP of this thread was obviously not about climate change (even with it's curious title) or climate or change or warming - or CO2 - It was about "Republicans" with an intended and clear message about "Republicans" - Full stop. It was another example of taking a very complex issue/problem, reducing it down, and using to to paint an extremely large number of people with a very wide brush - A brush that is cemented to an ideology.
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Re: Climate Change

Post by Atlanticmike »

Moksha wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:17 am
Ceeboo, what do you think about the average global temperature going up?
Ok, the temperature is going up, would you rather the temperature go up or go down?? 500 years ago the temperature dropped 3.6 degrees fahrenheit in what is none as the little ice age. Lots of speculation, but we still don't know what caused it. Personally, I would be scared if the temperature was going down, not up. The Earth is getting greener, which will benefit us in the coming years. The population is skyrocketing and a greener earth will be beneficial at helping us feed the world.

Is global warming real, yes it is. But, like I said, it's not necessarily a bad thing. Maybe you need to step back and start thinking about why you're so scared of global warming. Basically, what I'm trying to say is, you've been hoodwinked into believing the world is going to end as we know it. "Global warming" isn't science as much as it's a political ideology. It has gone beyond science, way beyond science. And PROGRESSIVES are using global warming to scare the chit out of people so they can control their thoughts and actions. You're in a global cult, wake up!!
Chap
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Re: Climate Change

Post by Chap »

The Science article referred to in the Guardian article in my previous post is here:

Intergenerational inequities in exposure to climate extremes

For those who can't access the article directly, here is a key quote:
Our results allow for comparing lifetime exposure to climate extremes across birth cohorts globally. For example, a person born in 1960 will on average experience around 4 ± 2 (1σ) heat waves across their lifetime according to our extreme heat wave definition (see the first figure). The lifetime heat wave exposure of this cohort is largely insensitive to the three future temperature scenarios considered here. By contrast, a child born in 2020 will experience 30 ± 9 heat waves under a scenario that follows current climate pledges, which could be reduced to 22 ± 7 heat waves if warming is limited to 2°C or 18 ± 8 heat waves if it is limited to 1.5°C. In any case, that is seven, six, or four times more, respectively, compared with that of a person born in 1960. Repeating this analysis for all cohorts born between 1960 and 2020 highlights clear differences in lifetime exposure to heat waves between older and younger cohorts globally (see the first figure). The effect of alternative future temperature trajectories on the lifetime exposure multiplication factor becomes discernible only for cohorts younger than 40 years in 2020, with the largest differences for the youngest cohorts.

The previous example only uses one hazard indicator and a subset of all possible future temperature pathways. We expanded this approach and considered six extreme event categories: wildfires, crop failures, droughts, river floods, heat waves, and tropical cyclones (see table S1), which we analyzed under a wide range of temperature pathways that resulted in future warming that ranges from constant present-day levels up to 3.5°C by 2100 (see materials and methods and fig. S1). To this end, we generated a total of 273 global-scale projections with 15 impact models forced by four bias-adjusted global climate models (see table S2). Inspired by the IPCC’s Reasons for Concern Framework (7), we visualized the exposure multiplication factors, relative to a hypothetical reference person living under preindustrial climate conditions, as a function of the 2100 GMT anomaly and cohort (see the second figure and fig. S2). Life expectancy varies with the cohort, whereas the hypothetical reference person is given the same life expectancy as that of the 1960 birth cohort in our figures. Therefore, in contrast to the previous comparison of lifetime exposure across generations given historical and climate conditions (see the first figure), we assessed how projected lifetime exposure of birth cohorts is affected by climate change since the preindustrial era and by increased life expectancy since 1960.

Our results highlight that lifetime exposure to each of the considered extreme events consistently increases for higher warming levels and younger cohorts. Changes in extreme event frequencies have relatively little effect on lifetime exposure for cohorts above age 55 in 2020, but this rapidly changes for younger cohorts as they experience increasing extreme events in the coming years and decades (see the second figure and fig. S2). For a 3°C global warming pathway, a 6-year-old in 2020 will experience twice as many wildfires and tropical cyclones, three times more river floods, four times more crop failures, five times more droughts, and 36 times more heat waves relative to the reference person.

Although qualitatively consistent, quantitative exposure changes differ among categories: For wildfires and tropical cyclones, increases in exposure remain limited relative to the other categories, whereas heat wave exposure increases much more strongly, up to a factor of 44 for the 2020 birth cohort under a scenario with 3.5°C global warming. Aggregating the exposure multiplication factors across the six categories shows that people younger than 10 years in 2020 will experience about a fourfold increase in extreme events if global warming is limited to 1.5°C, an increase that older cohorts will never experience, even if a scenario toward 3.5°C warming is followed (see fig. S3A). Under a 3°C global warming pathway, children under 8 years will face an almost fivefold increase in extreme event exposure. These exposure multiplication factors scale robustly with the warming pathway and cohort across a range of aggregation methods, despite some variation in the factor values (see fig. S3).

We then calculated the probability of each person’s lifetime exposure occurring under preindustrial climate conditions. Lives with an accumulated exposure that would occur with less than 0.01% probability under preindustrial climate (that is, with less than a 1 in 10,000 chance) are classified as “unprecedented.” We found that cohorts above age 55 years in 2020 will on average live an unprecedented life only for heat waves and crop failures, whereas cohorts aged 0 to 40 years in 2020 will additionally face unprecedented exposure to droughts and flooding above 1.5°C warming (see the second figure). Aggregated across all the event categories, lifetime exposure to extremes is unprecedented at all warming levels and cohorts (see fig. S3A).
And here is a figure that gives an overview of the results of the analysis:

Image
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
Alf'Omega
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Re: Climate Change

Post by Alf'Omega »

Ceeboo your issue isn't whether Climate Change is real, but rather your issue is with the claim that Republicans are in denial about it. While you, a Republican, may not be in denial about it, this doesn't negate the fact that Republicans as a whole generally are, especially the ones who are elected officials. Donald Trump once called it a China hoax. Even when Atlanmticmike doesn't deny it, he's still downplaying it, saying it could be a good thing. Really? Something like 80% of our population lives along the coastlines, and could it be a good thing economically for us to have to move that many people inland because of the rising seas? Maybe we should just relax in your blissfully ignorance and follow deep wisdom of Ben Shapiro who said this doesn't present a problem because people would just sell their property before it gets flooded and move elsewhere!

Atlanticmike demonstrates his ignorance as usual by relaying these Rush Limbaugh talking points about the little ice age and how the media has "hoodwinked" us all into thinking the world is coming to an end. That kind of idiotic commentary is more deserving of your first response, since it is basically beating a straw man. He wants to have it both ways. He doesn't want to claim Climate Change is a hoax because he knows the data overwhelmingly rejects that premise, but he still wants to remain loyal to his Republican cult, so he spins it around and says it is a Progressive thing used to control people or whatever idiotic thing someone on talk radio told him.
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