I don't need to wiggle, so it's all good... I am entirely comfortable with it.
I wonder what narrow neck of land MG is going to wiggle in? There are several on the map for him to choose from. He only need step in and say, "That's the narrow neck I choose." Then we can begin to have some fun! Watch Shulem manhandle him.
I have no doubt! Looking forward to the show. I predict magic tricks aplenty.
I wonder what narrow neck of land MG is going to wiggle in? There are several on the map for him to choose from. He only need step in and say, "That's the narrow neck I choose." Then we can begin to have some fun! Watch Shulem manhandle him.
I have no doubt! Looking forward to the show. I predict magic tricks aplenty.
From another thread:
Book of Mormon geography can be knocked around until the cows come home and thereafter, but if you aren’t able to get through the barrier of Book of Mormon translation and witnesses to that translation process your ‘narrow neck’ side trips have little or no consequence in the larger scheme of things.
If the best folks like RFM can do is chalk up the Book of Mormon to cheap magic tricks using a white hat with a false bottom you’ve got a real problem.
He pops in and out of here all the time. In his podcast he readily admitted that he didn’t know how Joseph actually carried out the so called con. He attempted to draw a one to one comparison with what he knows about magic tricks.
I admit that RFM needs to do more work in showing how Smith pulled off the rock in the hat trick. His work has been an introduction but it needs actual demonstration and physical analysis. It needs to be tested. I would suggest that he acquire and fabricate a magic hat and attempt to simulate the trick himself. That is something he should be doing because he's most qualified. Let him put his money where is mouth is. He can set the props up and attempt to simulate the whole thing. It will take effort and imagination. Once he figures it out, he will become famous.
You mean it didn't fly with YOU and perhaps a great many of the faithful. But unbelievers will eat it up! We critics recognize that it's very hard to convince the believers of anything. Their testimonies won't allow it. But testimonies can be broken, including yours.
With the witness accounts and other information that’s out there I think RFM’s arguments for simply calling Joseph Smith a skilled magician to explain away the translation and the complexity of the Book of Mormon were more or less a cheap trick.
Well, yeah, RFM has his work cut out for him. He needs to simulate the trick and put it all together. Can he do that? It will require brilliance on his part but I believe he is up to the task. The field is white already to harvest...
And he's a damn good missionary. Many are leaving the flock and many will never join because of him. My nephew (member of the Church) contacted me and asked me if it was RFM who mentioned my name during one of his Book of Abraham podcasts with Robert Ritner. I confirmed that it was me. My nephew told me that he had listened to all of RFM's podcasts and really enjoys them. I haven't asked him if he is still going to church and he didn't offer that information. I think RFM has been cracking his testimony shell.
Thank you, RFM, for your excellent missionary service.
I have no doubt! Looking forward to the show. I predict magic tricks aplenty.
From another thread:
Book of Mormon geography can be knocked around until the cows come home and thereafter, but if you aren’t able to get through the barrier of Book of Mormon translation and witnesses to that translation process your ‘narrow neck’ side trips have little or no consequence in the larger scheme of things.
If the best folks like RFM can do is chalk up the Book of Mormon to cheap magic tricks using a white hat with a false bottom you’ve got a real problem.
Regards,
MG
Nonsense. This is a fictional account, written in the 19th century, by a person who engaged in multiple cons and scams before settling on this one. You have a different opinion, based on your religious beliefs, which is fine. There are many, many paths that can be taken to determine this document is fictional, and your ominous comments about how and what people must disprove or prove are not relevant to a legitimate analysis.
But, carry on. Shulem is enjoying this, and I enjoy watching Shulem eviscerate the arguments.
That they could have been deceived through magician’s tricks during the length and breadth of the Book of Mormon translation is a far fetched theory.
The idea that Oliver and Emma were deceived by illusions and sleight of hand coupled with the pretended ability to channel God directly is NOT a far fetch theory for unbelievers and critics. It all makes sense, perfect sense. It's the believers who are guarding their testimonies whose minds are more or less closed because it threatens everything they hold dear.
You’re not going to get many people to join the crowd of critics who would simply like to ignore the problems that crop up with looking at Oliver, Emma, and the other witnesses as being ‘fooled’ by so called magic tricks.
Our work here is not done. This ministry will continue and more shall be revealed. Line upon line and precept upon precept...
And I’m doubly sure you will respond that you’re not going to give an apologist the time of day.
But the facts are not in your favor or supportive of RFM’s efforts to portray Joseph Smith as a simple magician/con artist.
I suppose we may have to leave it at that.
If you're so sure that I've "read this book" written by an apologist, how can you be doubly sure that I won't give the apologist the time of day? I've not read the book.
Look, putting a rock in a hat and pretending to translate ancient writing on plates under a cloth is not something the world at large will ever accept. It's crazy talk.
[The Book of Mormon] is a fictional account, written in the 19th century, by a person who engaged in multiple cons and scams before settling on this one.
Your sources lead you in that direction. Understood.
Other sources lead in a different direction and with contrasting outcomes in regards to faith and belief in God/Christ, the restoration, etc.
Book of Mormon geography can be knocked around until the cows come home
It sure can. But not so with the Bible. We know where all the locations are as described therein. I could produce a long list of geographical features described and named in the Bible and then show you on the map exactly where they are.
Try doing that with the Book of Mormon! It's like cows jumping over the moon -- all fantasy.
MG
But the facts are not in your favor or supportive of RFM’s efforts to portray Joseph Smith as a simple magician/con artist.
Oh, but they are, indeed they certainly are. And the entire 100% full lack of archaeological substantive, historical verity reality to either Nephites or Lamanites are entirely on RFM's side, absolutely entirely.
Book of Mormon geography can be knocked around until the cows come home and thereafter, but if you aren’t able to get through the barrier of Book of Mormon translation and witnesses to that translation process your ‘narrow neck’ side trips have little or no consequence in the larger scheme of things.
President Hinckley openly declared in General Conference that either Joseph Smith saw the Father and Son in the sacred grove or he did not. And if he didn't then the Church is a fraud.
Likewise, either there is a narrow neck in the Book of Mormon or there is not. If there isn't than what then?
Show me the neck! Then I can believe. I need a sign.
