Is being a "Mormon" as a Man (and Married LDS), Better in the Midst of Wokeism & Secular Culture?

[Free Ranger]

I've been reading through the exchanges on here, here is my input as the OP:

In case anyone is curious this is what I was referring to when I have made comments about how one of my problems is with Woke propagandists taking over masculine hero movie franchises instead of creating their own feminist superheros. I also criticized the dimunition, emasculation, or outright annihilation of the male hero characters with the woke feminist agenda of hijacking on these stories' and characters success and replacing them with female superhero characters. Rather than simply, just as He-Man had his shows and She-Ra had her shows, and respecting the fans of each show, the Woke feminist propagandist have essentially given the middle finger to fans of these superhero franchises, as they clearly had an agenda. Imagine if things were reversed, imagine that every female hero women have valued mythologically was replaced with a masculine alternative. People on the Left would be able to see it more objectively and then they would rethink what I'm talking about. For anyone who disagrees with me, at least be open-minded and listen to what this female has to say, that is of course if the female voice is still respected. See https://youtu.be/Nqmd4iU8J3k

And here's a discussion about the recent Star Wars movies being clearly full of woke feminist propaganda: https://www.quora.com/Is-Star-Wars-The- ... anda?ch=19

I will not reply to every one of the Woke individuals because it feels like the equivalent of trying to talk to a McConkie Mormon using Louis C. Midgley style insults and manipulation tactics. In my journey out of Mormonism I had many personal conversations with Louis C. Midgley, he can be a real jerk; but I'll tell you what, some of the Wokeists on exmo' Boards act worse. But I will give some commentary to the audience that are reasonable and curious as to my point of view and more on my initial question (which began this thread).

Being an exMormon in the early 2000s, I felt that I was leaving LDS irrationality and cultish tendencies and entering into a secular world of pure rationality. Yes I was a bit naïve. I really did think that reason and the scientific method would potentially ideally produce a kind of "Vulcan Zion." I even tried attending an atheist meetup group for a short period. But I kept finding it odd that many of the atheists kept demanding that I accept the atheist label rather than non-theist or agnostic. This and other experience has made me realize that groupthink and cultish behavior is everywhere and probably embedded in human nature to a large degree. And now that Wokeism has infiltrated the atheist community and taken down its atheist popes (like Richard Dawkins), while atheist leaders like Michael Shermer are still trying to keep rationality afloat, I now see that this dream of a Vulcan Zion was as much a fantasy as the Mormon Zion; but at least in the Mormons Zion ideal you had the ethic of bearing each other's burdens and esteeming your brother/sister as yourself.

The fact is, we are homoreligious.

I used to think that leaving Mormonism and becoming an exMormon was leaving the mud of superstition and entering the clear blue waters of rationality. And in the early 2000s the exMormon community did seem to have the moral high ground, as many exMormons were a mix of Christian and atheists and Ethical Humanists and there was a general ethical standard and people were reasonable with their political views. During this time, I even had private conversations with John Dehlin, and at that time he was seeking power and status as a middle-way-Mormon and since his insider-group was Liberal Mormons (New Order Mormons) he once joined with others to try and get his group to turn on me, in the comment section of his podcast, by calling me an anti-Mormon (because I kept focusing on the empirical problems of Mormonism). That stung, as I had just had a private conversation with him the day before and we basically discussed his point of view of being a Cultural Mormon and treating it as mythology versus my Vulcan Mentality and focusing on the empiricism of Mormonism. We had a polite exchange and just agreed to disagree. But I felt that we understood each other and he respected my point of view. But he didn't, and he went on to treat me like the enemy and as if we never had that private cordial conversation. Others have commented on John D. Other ex-Mormons have pointed out other problems with John D. And while some ex-Mormons have a problem with him, other exmo's excuse his behaviors the same way McConkey Mormons excuse the problems among some LDS leaders. I bring it up only to point out that there are cultish leadership worship everywhere and it's not just in Mormonism.

One of the issues I was harping on in the early 2000s, was that at that time the Mormon church was not being transparent about the Seer Stone and the Hat (note that as of now, in 2022, the Mormon Church has done a 180 on that; I even saw LDS President Nelson in a video putting his head/face in a hat to describe the process!). I kept saying online in the early 2000s, and everywhere that the LDS church needs to reduce harm by inoculating the members. My ethical protest and campaign for transparency has now come to fruition for the most part. So I have witnessed progressive positive LDS changes over the years. Is it perfect now, of course not! Yet while some are incapable of acknowledging progress, I am.

But now I see many ex-Mormons, like some on here, espousing the same cultish mentality I was fleeing when I left Mormonism. I find the same Iron Rod McConkey type of Mormon personality, only they have taken off that jersey and put on the Woke jersey. So I'm like, it really doesn't matter whether you're Mormon or an exMormon at this point in history (in my view). You have the same human tendencies and personality types inside Mormonism and outside Mormonism. As Kishkumen eloquently put it on this thread, in a one of his comments, "On the other hand, you will find decent human beings everywhere. You will find assholes everywhere." I used to think that the biggest a-holes were only in Mormonism. I now see that that was a myopic and naïve point of view. Spending more years being exposed to other forms of human nature I see that human nature is human nature inside or outside of Mormonism.

So going back to my initial post and keeping things on topic, what is ex/non-Mormonism offering me that's better than Mormonism?

In Mormonism I am not personally attacked as a bigot and a sexist and other disparaging dehumanizing labels. In Mormonism I'm given an identity, I am part of something larger than myself. There is a shared ethic and the ability to have more civility based on that shared ethic and a metaphysical belief in a soul. I have lurked on exmormon boards over the years and had conversations in person with atheistic Woke people and I've seen the worst kind of behavior coming from these folks. So as MG pointed out, to paraphrase, what are we/exmo's offering Free Ranger (me) that's a better alternative?

Psychologists say most of us pick a political stance based on psychological factors that are beyond our free will. In other words, we all think that we are high and mighty and righteous and choose our political stands but a lot of it is biological and psychologically based. The point I'm making is that we are all going to have a political leaning based on a degree of unconscious determinism. If that is so, then people should be a lot more tolerant and kind toward those of different points of view and avoid the cultish name-calling and insulting. But that is not happening here among a certain bunch of allegedly enlightened ex-Mormons, who can quickly see the problems in Mormonism, but can't see the problems in their Wokeism. Here's my point, if ex-Mormons and non-Mormons can be just as cultish and problematic as Mormons, as I've encountered, then why not go back to Mormonism? I mean, besides the empirical issues and the arguments that it is unscientific, which don't matter to me as much as a religious humanist (and there is a growing number of Mormons anyway who hold nuanced views like on the historicity of the Book of Mormon), and I'm seeing it more as an ethical and empowering worldview and tribal culture; then is it just as good or better than any alternative I have encountered thus far? Yes I would have to make some sacrifices and trade-offs and accept some annoying things, but I'm not finding any better alternative at this point. Is there one?

The Cult of Wokeism has infiltrated Atheism and the exMormon Community, obviously there are exceptions, not all ex-Mormons and atheists are buying into it; but the fact that it is a sweeping cult mentality phenomen makes me see that human beings are not rational; and so if human beings are clearly not rational and I'm not going to find pure rationality outside of Mormonism, then why not participate in my cultural LDS heritage like a Jew who becomes a nontheist but still values many or most aspects of his Jewish identity and culture?

As I watched the rise of Wokeism and saw the rational Liberal position get swept up and trampled on in the midst of the bullying stampede of the irrationality of Wokeism, I have often said to my Liberal friends and acquaintances who are still reasonable: it's like there's a sports cult that wants you to join their team. First they're nice and they say "come join our team" and then you walk into their locker room and they have their rival team's mascot hung from the ceiling. You noticed that it appears like a white/Caucasian hetersexual male and the face looks a lot like yours; and they hand you a bat and demand that you join them in beating the crap out of this other team's mascot. And they want you to paint your face and do some chanting of certain phrases and accept certain words and labels, and if you don't then they call you names and insult you and attack you. I'm like, why would I want to join this kind of team?

Personally I feel betrayed. As I mentioned in my initial post, one of the reasons why I left the Mormon church was because of the Seed of Cain Doctrine (which I have since learned came from the Protestant South). Like I said, believe it or not, I am high in empathy. In the early 2000s, I kept saying the Mormon church needs to disavow that doctrine and they finally did in 2013. I have also held other political views that one would call Liberal and stood up for minorities and tried to support and defend the downtrodden. But all of this it seems is not appreciated in the far-Left Wokeist political agenda. It has become like the Catholic Church teaching Original Sin saying I have this original sin of white fragility and I must confess my internal white racism, sexism, etc., and if I don't I must be canceled / excommunicated and metaphiorically strung up and burned at the stake. If I instead argue for the positions held by Martin Luther King jr. my thoughts are ignored and again I am handed a bat and told to go beat the other team's mascot that is a mirror image of me, my ethnicity and gender.

The reason why I resigned from the Mormon church is because I wanted to have freedom of speech. I knew that if I spoke out pubically about my questions and concerns I would possibly come under their suspicions and be called in for discipline. So resigning was largely to give me the freedom to speak my mind. I did not like being called an anti- Mormon either and being threatened with excommunication or disfellowship. But now I am seeing the Mormon Church being more embracing of free speech than ever before. I know most ex-Mormons have a very negative opinion of Kwaku and I'm not in support of everything he says and does; but I have heard him say things like (to paraphrase), "hey you know what I disagree with [an LDS leader] because ya know what I'm not in a cult, " or he will say things that are not in step with the traditional dogma; and he is given freedom of speech in many Mormon circles; but in contrast, I am seeing an attack on free speech by secular woke feminists. As of right now I experience much more muzzling attempts by those outside of Mormonism. So with this new historical phenomenon I actually think right now I have more freedom of speech in many Mormon circles in contrast to secular circles.

This is what I don't understand, one of the main reasons I left Mormonism was because of the McConkie type of Mormons and Iron Rod type Mormons, those who want to act like zookeepers and poke and prod and keep everyone mentally fearful and caged. So I was like I want nothing to do with that and left in the early 2000s. But now I'm finding many exMormons are adopting the same McConkey type mentality and the same Louis Midgley apologetic tactics, only they're doing it to support their own Woke cult. So I'm like, they're not offering anything better than Mormonism at this point. Meanwhile, the Mormon Church demoted Daniel Peterson and Midgely types, and promoted a more pastoral apologetics and are championing more historical transparency. In the last 10 years they've made some huge positive changes, so much so that its almost not the same religion that I left.

I have spent the last couple of years visiting the Deseret Book Store in my hometown and reading through the Joseph Smith Papers and Patrick Mason's book Planted and have read or listened in audiobook form to almost everything Terryl Givens has put out. And I'm like, wow this is not the McConkie Mormonism I left behind in the early 2000s. So I'm seeing positive changes in Mormonism and simultaneously the deevolution of Renaissance Enlightenment/Liberal principles I used to find more in the exMormon community; as postmodernist Wokeism has infiltrated the exMo ranks. So I'm like, Mormons are starting to look like a lighthouse amidst the Woke madness.

So again, why would I not attempt to be a cultural Mormon like a Jewish atheist is a cultural Jew; when wokeism is making it so I'm statistically more likely to have an unpleasant relationship in a secular marriage; whereas if I were to marry a Terryl and Fiona Givens type Mormon, I statistically perhaps more likely to have a successful marriage. And why would I not want to be friends with Terryl and Fiona Givens type Mormons when they often take seriously the concept of bearing each other's burdens and esteeming your brother/sister as yourself? Outside the Mormon church, I'm not finding much better alternatives for tribal belonging and ethical solidarity.

I mentioned Shawn McCraney, remember that he was a vitriolic anti-Mormonism type guy for nearly a decade. But after some introspection and seeing the harm of other versions of Christianity and secularism, here's what he has to say about the pragmatic fraternal benefits of Mormonism: https://youtu.be/-rO30Ib_J8Y

So if I don't care as much about the scientific validity of Mormonism anymore (as an agnostic religious humanist), and I'm more interested in the pragmatic, fraternal, existential, and mythological benefits of Mormonism, with it's cohesive structure in maintaining relationships and families: what better social alternative is there? Because at least in the Mormon Community I am respected as a man and my ethnicity is not considered an Original Sin, and it gives me a Meaning in Life and metaphysical life purpose and says we have a soul with intrinsic value and provides ethical accountability for being my best self as a man; while providing a masculine mythology that is inspiring.

So again as my initial post asks, is being Mormon as a man , better in the midst of Wokeism and Secular Culture?

[canpakes]

So again as my initial post asks, is being Mormon as a man , better in the midst of Wokeism and Secular Culture?

Two questions:

1. Better than what?

2. Do you have a choice about the ‘as a man’ part?

[Free Ranger]

So again as my initial post asks, is being Mormon as a man , better in the midst of Wokeism and Secular Culture?

Two questions:

1. Better than what?

2. Do you have a choice about the ‘as a man’ part?

Respectifully, I already answered your questions in my last comment. In other words, if you read carefully my last comment I answer your questions. And I suspect these are not good faith questions. But I hope I am mistaken on that, but you can understand my suspicion given the barrage of personal attacks against me.

I'm more interested in your opinion as to my honest questions and the points I made in my last commet and my initial post.

[sock puppet]

I've been reading through the exchanges on here, here is my input as the OP:

In case anyone is curious this is what I was referring to when I have made comments about how one of my problems is with Woke propagandists taking over masculine hero movie franchises instead of creating their own feminist superheros. I also criticized the dimunition, emasculation, or outright annihilation of the male hero characters with the woke feminist agenda of hijacking on these stories' and characters success and replacing them with female superhero characters. Rather than simply, just as He-Man had his shows and She-Ra had her shows, and respecting the fans of each show, the Woke feminist propagandist have essentially given the middle finger to fans of these superhero franchises, as they clearly had an agenda. Imagine if things were reversed, imagine that every female hero women have valued mythologically was replaced with a masculine alternative. People on the Left would be able to see it more objectively and then they would rethink what I'm talking about. For anyone who disagrees with me, at least be open-minded and listen to what this female has to say, that is of course if the female voice is still respected. See https://youtu.be/Nqmd4iU8J3k

And here's a discussion about the recent Star Wars movies being clearly full of woke feminist propaganda: https://www.quora.com/Is-Star-Wars-The- ... anda?ch=19

I will not reply to every one of the Woke individuals because it feels like the equivalent of trying to talk to a McConkie Mormon using Louis C. Midgley style insults and manipulation tactics. In my journey out of Mormonism I had many personal conversations with Louis C. Midgley, he can be a real jerk; but I'll tell you what, some of the Wokeists on exmo' Boards act worse. But I will give some commentary to the audience that are reasonable and curious as to my point of view and more on my initial question (which began this thread).

Being an exMormon in the early 2000s, I felt that I was leaving LDS irrationality and cultish tendencies and entering into a secular world of pure rationality. Yes I was a bit naïve. I really did think that reason and the scientific method would potentially ideally produce a kind of "Vulcan Zion." I even tried attending an atheist meetup group for a short period. But I kept finding it odd that many of the atheists kept demanding that I accept the atheist label rather than non-theist or agnostic. This and other experience has made me realize that groupthink and cultish behavior is everywhere and probably embedded in human nature to a large degree. And now that Wokeism has infiltrated the atheist community and taken down its atheist popes (like Richard Dawkins), while atheist leaders like Michael Shermer are still trying to keep rationality afloat, I now see that this dream of a Vulcan Zion was as much a fantasy as the Mormon Zion; but at least in the Mormons Zion ideal you had the ethic of bearing each other's burdens and esteeming your brother/sister as yourself.

The fact is, we are homoreligious.

I used to think that leaving Mormonism and becoming an exMormon was leaving the mud of superstition and entering the clear blue waters of rationality. And in the early 2000s the exMormon community did seem to have the moral high ground, as many exMormons were a mix of Christian and atheists and Ethical Humanists and there was a general ethical standard and people were reasonable with their political views. During this time, I even had private conversations with John Dehlin, and at that time he was seeking power and status as a middle-way-Mormon and since his insider-group was Liberal Mormons (New Order Mormons) he once joined with others to try and get his group to turn on me, in the comment section of his podcast, by calling me an anti-Mormon (because I kept focusing on the empirical problems of Mormonism). That stung, as I had just had a private conversation with him the day before and we basically discussed his point of view of being a Cultural Mormon and treating it as mythology versus my Vulcan Mentality and focusing on the empiricism of Mormonism. We had a polite exchange and just agreed to disagree. But I felt that we understood each other and he respected my point of view. But he didn't, and he went on to treat me like the enemy and as if we never had that private cordial conversation. Others have commented on John D. Other ex-Mormons have pointed out other problems with John D. And while some ex-Mormons have a problem with him, other exmo's excuse his behaviors the same way McConkey Mormons excuse the problems among some LDS leaders. I bring it up only to point out that there are cultish leadership worship everywhere and it's not just in Mormonism.

One of the issues I was harping on in the early 2000s, was that at that time the Mormon church was not being transparent about the Seer Stone and the Hat (note that as of now, in 2022, the Mormon Church has done a 180 on that; I even saw LDS President Nelson in a video putting his head/face in a hat to describe the process!). I kept saying online in the early 2000s, and everywhere that the LDS church needs to reduce harm by inoculating the members. My ethical protest and campaign for transparency has now come to fruition for the most part. So I have witnessed progressive positive LDS changes over the years. Is it perfect now, of course not! Yet while some are incapable of acknowledging progress, I am.

But now I see many ex-Mormons, like some on here, espousing the same cultish mentality I was fleeing when I left Mormonism. I find the same Iron Rod McConkey type of Mormon personality, only they have taken off that jersey and put on the Woke jersey. So I'm like, it really doesn't matter whether you're Mormon or an exMormon at this point in history (in my view). You have the same human tendencies and personality types inside Mormonism and outside Mormonism. As Kishkumen eloquently put it on this thread, in a one of his comments, "On the other hand, you will find decent human beings everywhere. You will find assholes everywhere." I used to think that the biggest a-holes were only in Mormonism. I now see that that was a myopic and naïve point of view. Spending more years being exposed to other forms of human nature I see that human nature is human nature inside or outside of Mormonism.

So going back to my initial post and keeping things on topic, what is ex/non-Mormonism offering me that's better than Mormonism?

In Mormonism I am not personally attacked as a bigot and a sexist and other disparaging dehumanizing labels. In Mormonism I'm given an identity, I am part of something larger than myself. There is a shared ethic and the ability to have more civility based on that shared ethic and a metaphysical belief in a soul. I have lurked on exmormon boards over the years and had conversations in person with atheistic Woke people and I've seen the worst kind of behavior coming from these folks. So as MG pointed out, to paraphrase, what are we/exmo's offering Free Ranger (me) that's a better alternative?

Psychologists say most of us pick a political stance based on psychological factors that are beyond our free will. In other words, we all think that we are high and mighty and righteous and choose our political stands but a lot of it is biological and psychologically based. The point I'm making is that we are all going to have a political leaning based on a degree of unconscious determinism. If that is so, then people should be a lot more tolerant and kind toward those of different points of view and avoid the cultish name-calling and insulting. But that is not happening here among a certain bunch of allegedly enlightened ex-Mormons, who can quickly see the problems in Mormonism, but can't see the problems in their Wokeism. Here's my point, if ex-Mormons and non-Mormons can be just as cultish and problematic as Mormons, as I've encountered, then why not go back to Mormonism? I mean, besides the empirical issues and the arguments that it is unscientific, which don't matter to me as much as a religious humanist (and there is a growing number of Mormons anyway who hold nuanced views like on the historicity of the Book of Mormon), and I'm seeing it more as an ethical and empowering worldview and tribal culture; then is it just as good or better than any alternative I have encountered thus far? Yes I would have to make some sacrifices and trade-offs and accept some annoying things, but I'm not finding any better alternative at this point. Is there one?

The Cult of Wokeism has infiltrated Atheism and the exMormon Community, obviously there are exceptions, not all ex-Mormons and atheists are buying into it; but the fact that it is a sweeping cult mentality phenomen makes me see that human beings are not rational; and so if human beings are clearly not rational and I'm not going to find pure rationality outside of Mormonism, then why not participate in my cultural LDS heritage like a Jew who becomes a nontheist but still values many or most aspects of his Jewish identity and culture?

As I watched the rise of Wokeism and saw the rational Liberal position get swept up and trampled on in the midst of the bullying stampede of the irrationality of Wokeism, I have often said to my Liberal friends and acquaintances who are still reasonable: it's like there's a sports cult that wants you to join their team. First they're nice and they say "come join our team" and then you walk into their locker room and they have their rival team's mascot hung from the ceiling. You noticed that it appears like a white/Caucasian hetersexual male and the face looks a lot like yours; and they hand you a bat and demand that you join them in beating the crap out of this other team's mascot. And they want you to paint your face and do some chanting of certain phrases and accept certain words and labels, and if you don't then they call you names and insult you and attack you. I'm like, why would I want to join this kind of team?

Personally I feel betrayed. As I mentioned in my initial post, one of the reasons why I left the Mormon church was because of the Seed of Cain Doctrine (which I have since learned came from the Protestant South). Like I said, believe it or not, I am high in empathy. In the early 2000s, I kept saying the Mormon church needs to disavow that doctrine and they finally did in 2013. I have also held other political views that one would call Liberal and stood up for minorities and tried to support and defend the downtrodden. But all of this it seems is not appreciated in the far-Left Wokeist political agenda. It has become like the Catholic Church teaching Original Sin saying I have this original sin of white fragility and I must confess my internal white racism, sexism, etc., and if I don't I must be canceled / excommunicated and metaphiorically strung up and burned at the stake. If I instead argue for the positions held by Martin Luther King jr. my thoughts are ignored and again I am handed a bat and told to go beat the other team's mascot that is a mirror image of me, my ethnicity and gender.

The reason why I resigned from the Mormon church is because I wanted to have freedom of speech. I knew that if I spoke out pubically about my questions and concerns I would possibly come under their suspicions and be called in for discipline. So resigning was largely to give me the freedom to speak my mind. I did not like being called an anti- Mormon either and being threatened with excommunication or disfellowship. But now I am seeing the Mormon Church being more embracing of free speech than ever before. I know most ex-Mormons have a very negative opinion of Kwaku and I'm not in support of everything he says and does; but I have heard him say things like (to paraphrase), "hey you know what I disagree with [an LDS leader] because ya know what I'm not in a cult, " or he will say things that are not in step with the traditional dogma; and he is given freedom of speech in many Mormon circles; but in contrast, I am seeing an attack on free speech by secular woke feminists. As of right now I experience much more muzzling attempts by those outside of Mormonism. So with this new historical phenomenon I actually think right now I have more freedom of speech in many Mormon circles in contrast to secular circles.

This is what I don't understand, one of the main reasons I left Mormonism was because of the McConkie type of Mormons and Iron Rod type Mormons, those who want to act like zookeepers and poke and prod and keep everyone mentally fearful and caged. So I was like I want nothing to do with that and left in the early 2000s. But now I'm finding many exMormons are adopting the same McConkey type mentality and the same Louis Midgley apologetic tactics, only they're doing it to support their own Woke cult. So I'm like, they're not offering anything better than Mormonism at this point. Meanwhile, the Mormon Church demoted Daniel Peterson and Midgely types, and promoted a more pastoral apologetics and are championing more historical transparency. In the last 10 years they've made some huge positive changes, so much so that its almost not the same religion that I left.

I have spent the last couple of years visiting the Deseret Book Store in my hometown and reading through the Joseph Smith Papers and Patrick Mason's book Planted and have read or listened in audiobook form to almost everything Terryl Givens has put out. And I'm like, wow this is not the McConkie Mormonism I left behind in the early 2000s. So I'm seeing positive changes in Mormonism and simultaneously the deevolution of Renaissance Enlightenment/Liberal principles I used to find more in the exMormon community; as postmodernist Wokeism has infiltrated the exMo ranks. So I'm like, Mormons are starting to look like a lighthouse amidst the Woke madness.

So again, why would I not attempt to be a cultural Mormon like a Jewish atheist is a cultural Jew; when wokeism is making it so I'm statistically more likely to have an unpleasant relationship in a secular marriage; whereas if I were to marry a Terryl and Fiona Givens type Mormon, I statistically perhaps more likely to have a successful marriage. And why would I not want to be friends with Terryl and Fiona Givens type Mormons when they often take seriously the concept of bearing each other's burdens and esteeming your brother/sister as yourself? Outside the Mormon church, I'm not finding much better alternatives for tribal belonging and ethical solidarity.

I mentioned Shawn McCraney, remember that he was a vitriolic anti-Mormonism type guy for nearly a decade. But after some introspection and seeing the harm of other versions of Christianity and secularism, here's what he has to say about the pragmatic fraternal benefits of Mormonism: https://youtu.be/-rO30Ib_J8Y

So if I don't care as much about the scientific validity of Mormonism anymore (as an agnostic religious humanist), and I'm more interested in the pragmatic, fraternal, existential, and mythological benefits of Mormonism, with it's cohesive structure in maintaining relationships and families: what better social alternative is there? Because at least in the Mormon Community I am respected as a man and my ethnicity is not considered an Original Sin, and it gives me a Meaning in Life and metaphysical life purpose and says we have a soul with intrinsic value and provides ethical accountability for being my best self as a man; while providing a masculine mythology that is inspiring.

So again as my initial post asks, is being Mormon as a man , better in the midst of Wokeism and Secular Culture?

My impression: you are a personality type that needs the security and validation of being part of an organization. You left one organization (LDS church) because its theological precepts don't hold water, but you haven't yet found another organization that fits your needs.

[MG 2.0]

I've been reading through the exchanges on here, here is my input as the OP:

In case anyone is curious this is what I was referring to when I have made comments about how one of my problems is with Woke propagandists taking over masculine hero movie franchises instead of creating their own feminist superheros. I also criticized the dimunition, emasculation, or outright annihilation of the male hero characters with the woke feminist agenda of hijacking on these stories' and characters success and replacing them with female superhero characters. Rather than simply, just as He-Man had his shows and She-Ra had her shows, and respecting the fans of each show, the Woke feminist propagandist have essentially given the middle finger to fans of these superhero franchises, as they clearly had an agenda. Imagine if things were reversed, imagine that every female hero women have valued mythologically was replaced with a masculine alternative. People on the Left would be able to see it more objectively and then they would rethink what I'm talking about. For anyone who disagrees with me, at least be open-minded and listen to what this female has to say, that is of course if the female voice is still respected. See https://youtu.be/Nqmd4iU8J3k

And here's a discussion about the recent Star Wars movies being clearly full of woke feminist propaganda: https://www.quora.com/Is-Star-Wars-The- ... anda?ch=19

I will not reply to every one of the Woke individuals because it feels like the equivalent of trying to talk to a McConkie Mormon using Louis C. Midgley style insults and manipulation tactics. In my journey out of Mormonism I had many personal conversations with Louis C. Midgley, he can be a real jerk; but I'll tell you what, some of the Wokeists on exmo' Boards act worse. But I will give some commentary to the audience that are reasonable and curious as to my point of view and more on my initial question (which began this thread).

Being an exMormon in the early 2000s, I felt that I was leaving LDS irrationality and cultish tendencies and entering into a secular world of pure rationality. Yes I was a bit naïve. I really did think that reason and the scientific method would potentially ideally produce a kind of "Vulcan Zion." I even tried attending an atheist meetup group for a short period. But I kept finding it odd that many of the atheists kept demanding that I accept the atheist label rather than non-theist or agnostic. This and other experience has made me realize that groupthink and cultish behavior is everywhere and probably embedded in human nature to a large degree. And now that Wokeism has infiltrated the atheist community and taken down its atheist popes (like Richard Dawkins), while atheist leaders like Michael Shermer are still trying to keep rationality afloat, I now see that this dream of a Vulcan Zion was as much a fantasy as the Mormon Zion; but at least in the Mormons Zion ideal you had the ethic of bearing each other's burdens and esteeming your brother/sister as yourself.

The fact is, we are homoreligious.

I used to think that leaving Mormonism and becoming an exMormon was leaving the mud of superstition and entering the clear blue waters of rationality. And in the early 2000s the exMormon community did seem to have the moral high ground, as many exMormons were a mix of Christian and atheists and Ethical Humanists and there was a general ethical standard and people were reasonable with their political views. During this time, I even had private conversations with John Dehlin, and at that time he was seeking power and status as a middle-way-Mormon and since his insider-group was Liberal Mormons (New Order Mormons) he once joined with others to try and get his group to turn on me, in the comment section of his podcast, by calling me an anti-Mormon (because I kept focusing on the empirical problems of Mormonism). That stung, as I had just had a private conversation with him the day before and we basically discussed his point of view of being a Cultural Mormon and treating it as mythology versus my Vulcan Mentality and focusing on the empiricism of Mormonism. We had a polite exchange and just agreed to disagree. But I felt that we understood each other and he respected my point of view. But he didn't, and he went on to treat me like the enemy and as if we never had that private cordial conversation. Others have commented on John D. Other ex-Mormons have pointed out other problems with John D. And while some ex-Mormons have a problem with him, other exmo's excuse his behaviors the same way McConkey Mormons excuse the problems among some LDS leaders. I bring it up only to point out that there are cultish leadership worship everywhere and it's not just in Mormonism.

One of the issues I was harping on in the early 2000s, was that at that time the Mormon church was not being transparent about the Seer Stone and the Hat (note that as of now, in 2022, the Mormon Church has done a 180 on that; I even saw LDS President Nelson in a video putting his head/face in a hat to describe the process!). I kept saying online in the early 2000s, and everywhere that the LDS church needs to reduce harm by inoculating the members. My ethical protest and campaign for transparency has now come to fruition for the most part. So I have witnessed progressive positive LDS changes over the years. Is it perfect now, of course not! Yet while some are incapable of acknowledging progress, I am.

But now I see many ex-Mormons, like some on here, espousing the same cultish mentality I was fleeing when I left Mormonism. I find the same Iron Rod McConkey type of Mormon personality, only they have taken off that jersey and put on the Woke jersey. So I'm like, it really doesn't matter whether you're Mormon or an exMormon at this point in history (in my view). You have the same human tendencies and personality types inside Mormonism and outside Mormonism. As Kishkumen eloquently put it on this thread, in a one of his comments, "On the other hand, you will find decent human beings everywhere. You will find assholes everywhere." I used to think that the biggest a-holes were only in Mormonism. I now see that that was a myopic and naïve point of view. Spending more years being exposed to other forms of human nature I see that human nature is human nature inside or outside of Mormonism.

So going back to my initial post and keeping things on topic, what is ex/non-Mormonism offering me that's better than Mormonism?

In Mormonism I am not personally attacked as a bigot and a sexist and other disparaging dehumanizing labels. In Mormonism I'm given an identity, I am part of something larger than myself. There is a shared ethic and the ability to have more civility based on that shared ethic and a metaphysical belief in a soul. I have lurked on exmormon boards over the years and had conversations in person with atheistic Woke people and I've seen the worst kind of behavior coming from these folks. So as MG pointed out, to paraphrase, what are we/exmo's offering Free Ranger (me) that's a better alternative?

Psychologists say most of us pick a political stance based on psychological factors that are beyond our free will. In other words, we all think that we are high and mighty and righteous and choose our political stands but a lot of it is biological and psychologically based. The point I'm making is that we are all going to have a political leaning based on a degree of unconscious determinism. If that is so, then people should be a lot more tolerant and kind toward those of different points of view and avoid the cultish name-calling and insulting. But that is not happening here among a certain bunch of allegedly enlightened ex-Mormons, who can quickly see the problems in Mormonism, but can't see the problems in their Wokeism. Here's my point, if ex-Mormons and non-Mormons can be just as cultish and problematic as Mormons, as I've encountered, then why not go back to Mormonism? I mean, besides the empirical issues and the arguments that it is unscientific, which don't matter to me as much as a religious humanist (and there is a growing number of Mormons anyway who hold nuanced views like on the historicity of the Book of Mormon), and I'm seeing it more as an ethical and empowering worldview and tribal culture; then is it just as good or better than any alternative I have encountered thus far? Yes I would have to make some sacrifices and trade-offs and accept some annoying things, but I'm not finding any better alternative at this point. Is there one?

The Cult of Wokeism has infiltrated Atheism and the exMormon Community, obviously there are exceptions, not all ex-Mormons and atheists are buying into it; but the fact that it is a sweeping cult mentality phenomen makes me see that human beings are not rational; and so if human beings are clearly not rational and I'm not going to find pure rationality outside of Mormonism, then why not participate in my cultural LDS heritage like a Jew who becomes a nontheist but still values many or most aspects of his Jewish identity and culture?

As I watched the rise of Wokeism and saw the rational Liberal position get swept up and trampled on in the midst of the bullying stampede of the irrationality of Wokeism, I have often said to my Liberal friends and acquaintances who are still reasonable: it's like there's a sports cult that wants you to join their team. First they're nice and they say "come join our team" and then you walk into their locker room and they have their rival team's mascot hung from the ceiling. You noticed that it appears like a white/Caucasian hetersexual male and the face looks a lot like yours; and they hand you a bat and demand that you join them in beating the crap out of this other team's mascot. And they want you to paint your face and do some chanting of certain phrases and accept certain words and labels, and if you don't then they call you names and insult you and attack you. I'm like, why would I want to join this kind of team?

Personally I feel betrayed. As I mentioned in my initial post, one of the reasons why I left the Mormon church was because of the Seed of Cain Doctrine (which I have since learned came from the Protestant South). Like I said, believe it or not, I am high in empathy. In the early 2000s, I kept saying the Mormon church needs to disavow that doctrine and they finally did in 2013. I have also held other political views that one would call Liberal and stood up for minorities and tried to support and defend the downtrodden. But all of this it seems is not appreciated in the far-Left Wokeist political agenda. It has become like the Catholic Church teaching Original Sin saying I have this original sin of white fragility and I must confess my internal white racism, sexism, etc., and if I don't I must be canceled / excommunicated and metaphiorically strung up and burned at the stake. If I instead argue for the positions held by Martin Luther King jr. my thoughts are ignored and again I am handed a bat and told to go beat the other team's mascot that is a mirror image of me, my ethnicity and gender.

The reason why I resigned from the Mormon church is because I wanted to have freedom of speech. I knew that if I spoke out pubically about my questions and concerns I would possibly come under their suspicions and be called in for discipline. So resigning was largely to give me the freedom to speak my mind. I did not like being called an anti- Mormon either and being threatened with excommunication or disfellowship. But now I am seeing the Mormon Church being more embracing of free speech than ever before. I know most ex-Mormons have a very negative opinion of Kwaku and I'm not in support of everything he says and does; but I have heard him say things like (to paraphrase), "hey you know what I disagree with [an LDS leader] because ya know what I'm not in a cult, " or he will say things that are not in step with the traditional dogma; and he is given freedom of speech in many Mormon circles; but in contrast, I am seeing an attack on free speech by secular woke feminists. As of right now I experience much more muzzling attempts by those outside of Mormonism. So with this new historical phenomenon I actually think right now I have more freedom of speech in many Mormon circles in contrast to secular circles.

This is what I don't understand, one of the main reasons I left Mormonism was because of the McConkie type of Mormons and Iron Rod type Mormons, those who want to act like zookeepers and poke and prod and keep everyone mentally fearful and caged. So I was like I want nothing to do with that and left in the early 2000s. But now I'm finding many exMormons are adopting the same McConkey type mentality and the same Louis Midgley apologetic tactics, only they're doing it to support their own Woke cult. So I'm like, they're not offering anything better than Mormonism at this point. Meanwhile, the Mormon Church demoted Daniel Peterson and Midgely types, and promoted a more pastoral apologetics and are championing more historical transparency. In the last 10 years they've made some huge positive changes, so much so that its almost not the same religion that I left.

I have spent the last couple of years visiting the Deseret Book Store in my hometown and reading through the Joseph Smith Papers and Patrick Mason's book Planted and have read or listened in audiobook form to almost everything Terryl Givens has put out. And I'm like, wow this is not the McConkie Mormonism I left behind in the early 2000s. So I'm seeing positive changes in Mormonism and simultaneously the deevolution of Renaissance Enlightenment/Liberal principles I used to find more in the exMormon community; as postmodernist Wokeism has infiltrated the exMo ranks. So I'm like, Mormons are starting to look like a lighthouse amidst the Woke madness.

So again, why would I not attempt to be a cultural Mormon like a Jewish atheist is a cultural Jew; when wokeism is making it so I'm statistically more likely to have an unpleasant relationship in a secular marriage; whereas if I were to marry a Terryl and Fiona Givens type Mormon, I statistically perhaps more likely to have a successful marriage. And why would I not want to be friends with Terryl and Fiona Givens type Mormons when they often take seriously the concept of bearing each other's burdens and esteeming your brother/sister as yourself? Outside the Mormon church, I'm not finding much better alternatives for tribal belonging and ethical solidarity.

I mentioned Shawn McCraney, remember that he was a vitriolic anti-Mormonism type guy for nearly a decade. But after some introspection and seeing the harm of other versions of Christianity and secularism, here's what he has to say about the pragmatic fraternal benefits of Mormonism: https://youtu.be/-rO30Ib_J8Y

So if I don't care as much about the scientific validity of Mormonism anymore (as an agnostic religious humanist), and I'm more interested in the pragmatic, fraternal, existential, and mythological benefits of Mormonism, with it's cohesive structure in maintaining relationships and families: what better social alternative is there? Because at least in the Mormon Community I am respected as a man and my ethnicity is not considered an Original Sin, and it gives me a Meaning in Life and metaphysical life purpose and says we have a soul with intrinsic value and provides ethical accountability for being my best self as a man; while providing a masculine mythology that is inspiring.

So again as my initial post asks, is being Mormon as a man , better in the midst of Wokeism and Secular Culture?

Thank you SO MUCH for this. Love it. An independent thinker that has their own thoughts.

Yes, the church has morphed over the years. An age of Mormon enlightenment you might say. I’m approaching seventy. Two more years. Things have become much more comfortable for those that have at least as many questions as they have answers. There is a place in the church nowadays for those that had to persevere through the days of certain leaders that took a hardline stance on various doctrines and issues.

I grew up in Southern California. In a home with Sunstone Magazine and Dialogue on the coffee table along with the Ensign (if that was what it was called at the time). I had the opportunity to think outside of the bubble. So I know both conservative Mormonism and liberal Mormonism and everything in between. I’ve been able to creat somewhat of a ‘sweet spot’ in my worldview and church view that makes the most sense to me.

There is room in the church for more nuanced Mormons. As you alluded to, obviously you have to choose your words carefully at times and turn the other cheek when needled one way or the other. And be open to the ways that religionists think that might be different than yours. Simple openness and acceptance of others and what makes them tick. Understanding that no one of us has a corner on ALL truth. The reasons you give for looking at the church with new eyes and considering developing a relationship with a woman in the faith are not totally ‘out there’. Yes, you would have to find the right gal. One who is a bit more liberal/nuanced in their views towards religion and Mormonism in particular.

And I think that’s not impossible.

But, and this is important, someone who sees the values/morality and way of living as a member of the church as boon rather than a curse.

Again, I REALLY liked your post. In some ways we may be cut from a similar cloth. I just happened to weather the storm without jumping ship.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

My impression: you are a personality type that needs the security and validation of being part of an organization. You left one organization (LDS church) because its theological precepts don't hold water, but you haven't yet found another organization that fits your needs.

Not to be disrespectful, but DUH!!

I’m hoping, however, that you’re not saying that people that belong to religious groups in order to find inclusiveness and companionship with those that may have similar ‘nonwoke’ views towards the world and their place in it, are somehow deficient in some way.

Nonwoke in the sense of walking lockstep with the current cancel/guilt/fear culture.

At first blush your first sentence seems to be a bit condescending. But I could be wrong.

Regards,
MG

[Morley]

I agree. I also like what Jon Stewart has to say about "Wokeism"--until he got labeled as "woke" he just thought he was really good at history. "Woke" is simply the disparaging word du jour by one of the extremes (this time, the far right). Dig just beyond the surface and it is merely a disparagement of previously obscured or overlooked facts of history coming to light and informing us. It is a term slung by those that want to keep history focused only on the contributions of white males.

Okay, this is sweet. Thank you.

[canpakes]

Two questions:

1. Better than what?

2. Do you have a choice about the ‘as a man’ part?

Respectifully, I already answered your questions in my last comment. In other words, if you read carefully my last comment I answer your questions. And I suspect these are not good faith questions. But I hope I am mistaken on that, but you can understand my suspicion given the barrage of personal attacks against me.

I'm more interested in your opinion as to my honest questions and the points I made in my last commet and my initial post.

No worries. It was a long post and I may have missed some portions of it, as I’m in the midst of a project. I’ll give it another read when I can give 100% of my attention to all of it.

I’ll probably still have some questions, though. : )

[Free Ranger]

... ....

My impression: you are a personality type that needs the security and validation of being part of an organization. You left one organization (LDS church) because its theological precepts don't hold water, but you haven't yet found another organization that fits your needs.
[/quote]

sock puppet,

I disagree with your psychoanalysis, I also find it dismissive and doesn't really address my points at all. I think that if I knew your personal life sock puppet, I would learn that you are not an island to yourself. That you too are, as you put it, also a "personality type that needs the security and validation of being part of an organization[group]." After all, respectfully, don't you post here often? Is this not your group you seek for security and validation? You are not saying that you yourself are immune from seeking security and validation, are you?

Or maybe your group is a political party, or your immediate family, or your co-workers and going bowling after work. Whatever it is, you seem to want to dismiss me and diminish me as a human being that is a social mammal, when we are all inherently tribal by our nature as "naked apes."

You are correct in saying that I haven't found another tribe that fits my needs. So I take it, you are saying that as a fellow tribal mammal, you have no better alternative?

[MG 2.0]

I mentioned Shawn McCraney, remember that he was a vitriolic anti-Mormonism type guy for nearly a decade. But after some introspection and seeing the harm of other versions of Christianity and secularism, here's what he has to say about the pragmatic fraternal benefits of Mormonism: https://youtu.be/-rO30Ib_J8Y

Wow. He’s changed his tune. I would also suggest listening. At least to the first ten minutes or so. The thing that Shawn leaves out, however, is the emphasis on Jesus Christ, His example, redemptive power, and following Him. Repentance and such. One can look at this metaphorically or literally, it still acts as an anchor for living ‘the good life’.

I knew he’d come around.

Regards,
MG