Church membership numbers not good.

[doubtingthomas]

When are you going to stop ignoring my comments?

For the love of god.

When you stop tearing down his testimony?

They're very fragile, you know.

Yes, poor MG.

[doubtingthomas]

God is BIG.

How big? Really really really big?

To limit Him and put Him in some puny little box of your own making? Where is the logic in THAT?

And how do you know he exists?

[Marcus]

MG, it's nothing but Masonic rites and rituals, look it up, Smith and his Dad were both Freemasons and Joseph simply borrowed their temple rites and rituals and created the endowment from it.

I’ve read books and articles/essays galore over the years having to do with masonry and the temple. Joseph’s family involvement, etc.

Joseph was eclectic in the formulation of the scaffolding on which the restoration took place. It couldn’t happen in a vacuum. Masonry was one template, along with others, that was used to formulate/organize the restoration and implement lost truths having to do with covenantal relationships with God. As humans we live in a physical realm in which ‘hands on’ experience reinforces our learning. Repeated kinesthetic repetition ingrains knowledge into our minds. The Masonic rituals provided that template.

As time has moved on since the initial endowment there have been adjustments to fit the world we live in. Each age from ancient to modern requires God to communicate and guide His children according to that which fits their culture, etc.

Makes sense, right?

Absolutely not.

Some folks, including critics in my estimation, have a hard time with a God that adjusts to the needs and abilities of His children. They want a static God rather than dynamic. They take the scriptures that say God is the same yesterday, today, and forever a bit too literally. It’s a problem with black and white thinking and an inability to imagine a God that works within a framework of evolution.

More not making sense.

We sometimes limit and dictate to God what He can and can’t do.

That explains this post completely. So much manipulation of “god,” just to fit an after the fact justification of one religion.

[MG 2.0]

They want a static God rather than dynamic. They take the scriptures that say God is the same yesterday, today, and forever a bit too literally.

So, we should interpret that last part as "God is just as wishy-washy today as he was yesterday and will be forever?"

Hi Shades!

No. But like I said, we ought not to shove God into a box of our own making. That’s exactly what I see going on with many critics. Thus, the black and white thinking.

I doubt that God is a simple binary thinker. I doubt that we can even wrap our puny little minds around how and why He does things.

Isaiah 55:8-9

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I do think that God has everything all figured out though and it’s simply up to us to try and find the best way follow Him.

Individually. And that may vary from one person to another.

But let’s not call God wishy washy. You and I both know that this is much too simplistic. God is ALL encompassing. He can’t do that by doing what He does in a willy nilly fashion.

The fact that new temples are outpacing our ability to get them up and running as soon as many would like, including some here, is an evidence that church ‘growth’ is pushing the limits of our ability to provide the ways/means for members to receive their saving/exalting ordinances and perform that same work for those that have passed on.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

The fact that new temples are outpacing our ability to get them up and running as soon as many would like, including some here, is an evidence that church ‘growth’ is pushing the limits of our ability to provide the ways/means for members to receive their saving/exalting ordinances and perform that same work for those that have passed on.

Another after the fact justification. And, completely inconsistent with the explanation previously given:

In my estimation the numbers that are important are the proliferation of temples throughout the earth. The church isn’t going to invest in these buildings unless they can see that the membership numbers in a given area are strong and active enough to support it.

First growth is pushing our limits, but then, it’s not enough.

[doubtingthomas]

is an evidence that church ‘growth’ is pushing the limits of our ability to provide the ways/means for members to receive their saving/exalting ordinances and perform that same work for those that have passed on.

But you just said, "I doubt that we can even wrap our puny little minds around how and why He does things." So do you understand why things happen yes or no? You can't have it both ways.

[Schreech]

No. But like I said, we ought not to shove God into a box of our own making.

The lack of self-awareness here is mind-blowing. The god you believe in only lives in your head and is 100% a god of your own making.

I do think that God has everything all figured out though and it’s simply up to us to try and find the best way follow Him.

...

But let’s not call God wishy washy. You and I both know that this is much too simplistic. God is ALL encompassing. He can’t do that by doing what He does in a willy nilly fashion.

Hey look - in the same post you literally did what you accused others of doing...

[Marcus]

The statistical report for 2021 is out and membership numbers continue to look dismal.
2021 stats
Here are the numbers from the year before.
2020 stats


Overall membership in 2021 was 16,805,400
Overall membership in 2020 was 16,663,663
A net increase of 141,437

New converts in 2021 = 168,283

Membership increase didn't even cover the number of new converts.
World population growth is about 1% which would also be more than the increase in membership growth.

The church isn't losing them by the thousands, or tens of thousands. Existing members are formally leaving the church by the hundreds of thousands. How else does one explain these numbers?

Despite the growth in membership numbers, despite the growth in missionary numbers, the number of convert baptisms has declined steadily since 1990.

1990 – 330, 877
1991 – 297, 770
1992 – 274, 477
1993 – 304, 808
1994 – 300, 730
1995 – 304, 330
1996 – 321, 385
1997 – 317,798
1998 – 299, 134
1999 – 306, 171
2000 – 273, 973
2001 – 292, 612
2002 – 283, 138
2003 – 242, 943
2004 – 241, 239
2005 – 243,108
2006 – 272,845
2007 – 279,218
2008 – 265,593
2009 – 280,106
2010 – 272,814
2011 – 281,312
2012 – 272,330
2013 – 282,945
2014 – 296,803
2015 – 257,402
2016 – 240,131
2017 – 233,729

2020 - 168,283

How does one explain the dynamic of Membership Increases + Missionary Increases = fewer and fewer convert baptisms?
The number of covert baptisms has halved when over the same period the membership number has doubled. Either the number of children added to the records has taken up the slack, or people are living much much longer…or the total membership number is spurious.

There is an even more spurious pattern in there. For 30 or so years, prior to the recent drop, convert baptisms were unrealistically steady, even as missionary numbers bounced all over. That, even more than the recent drop, tells me the measurement process was spurious.

[Equality]

Convert baptisms:
1990 – 330,877
2020 - 125,930

Church membership:
1990: 7,760,000
2020: 16,663,663

The LDS church claims "every member a missionary."
SAUCE

Ergo,

Converts per missionary 1990= 0.04

Converts per missionary 2020= 0.007

The member-missionary convert-baptism success rate was 5.7 times better in 1990 than 2020.

What can explain this? A decrease in the faith of the members? A field no longer white and ready to harvest? The world population has grown from 5.28 billion in 1990 to 7.753 billion in 2020, so the "field" of potential converts is much larger. One would expect that having twice as many member-missionaries and a pool of potential converts that is almost 50% larger would produce a much higher yield.

Maybe there weren't *really* 16,663,663 members in 2020?

Maybe there weren't *really* 330,887 converts in 1990?

Maybe the people who run this cult and lie about everything else also lie about their membership numbers.

[MG 2.0]

The god you believe in only lives in your head and is 100% a god of your own making.

It is this mindset that disallows for any real discussion. You can respond in this manner to anyone that claims belief in God. The conversation is then curtailed/over.

So be it.

Good to ‘see’ you again. Hope all is well.

Regards,
MG