Belief in God

[Jersey Girl]

Your unsupported assertion and denial of reality in this instance is crap.

So, I guess Hurricane Katrina wasn't a source of unnecessary pain? Or the source of Hurricane Katrina wasn't Mother Nature?

Or are you saying Mother Nature is a loving mother who would never cause any pain to her children?

Just wtf are you on about?

Well. They worship a blood god. Think about that for a hot second.

- Doc

When you say a blood god are you referring to the sacrificing of human life by the shedding of human blood? Yeah, for sure. I'd say there's more to that and for Christians, blood sacrifice went out the door with the death of Jesus on the cross.

I should probably add this in. It is my understanding that Catholics (I've been to many a mass over the years with the Boy when he was a practicing Catholic) believe that during the taking of the sacrament that the grape juice (used to be wine back in the day) and the wafers actually transform into the actual body and blood of Christ.

So far as I know, that is not supported by Biblical scripture.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Well. They worship a blood god. Think about that for a hot second.

- Doc

When you say a blood god are you referring to the sacrificing of human life by the shedding of human blood? Yeah, for sure. I'd say there's more to that and for Christians, blood sacrifice went out the door with the death of Jesus on the cross.

I should probably add this in. It is my understanding that Catholics (I've been to many a mass over the years with the Boy when he was a practicing Catholic) believe that during the taking of the sacrament that the grape juice (used to be wine back in the day) and the wafers actually transform into the actual body and blood of Christ.

So far as I know, that is not suuported by Biblical scripture.

Don’t forget animal sacrifices and symbolically eating flesh and blood. In some cases lighting candles, using particular gestures, wearing death symbols, and uttering strange incantations. It’s pretty demonic, frankly.

- Doc

[Jersey Girl]

When you say a blood god are you referring to the sacrificing of human life by the shedding of human blood? Yeah, for sure. I'd say there's more to that and for Christians, blood sacrifice went out the door with the death of Jesus on the cross.

I should probably add this in. It is my understanding that Catholics (I've been to many a mass over the years with the Boy when he was a practicing Catholic) believe that during the taking of the sacrament that the grape juice (used to be wine back in the day) and the wafers actually transform into the actual body and blood of Christ.

So far as I know, that is not suuported by Biblical scripture.

Don’t forget animal sacrifices and symbolically eating flesh and blood. In some cases lighting candles, using particular gestures, wearing death symbols, and uttering strange incantations. It’s pretty demonic, frankly.

- Doc

Did you read my post before you shot back this reply? I covered the symbolically eating flesh and blood or did you mean some other thing besides the Catholic view of the sacrament there? If there's something else...point me to it.

Also I need to know the following...

1. Does death symbols = cross necklaces type things?

2. Uttering strange incantations...tell me what that is.

I'll keep going here if you would fill in the blanks on those.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Nah. I attempted to engage you repeatedly about your “faith” over the years, but you instead chose to dip. I don’t need to over explain, or source the various practices of various Christian sects only for us to get mired down in apologetics. Christianity worships a blood god. Period.

Look. SS made a salient point and you responded with a dismissive comment when in reality he’s correct in his thinking. This is a cruel and vicious world by design, hence my pic above. Your faith and glib assertions change nothing. You’ll die thinking a glorious reunion awaits you, and this world will still turn and still cause unfathomable suffering for its inhabitants. That’s an irrefutable philosophical and physical fact.

- Doc

[Jersey Girl]

Nah. I attempted to engage you repeatedly about your “faith” over the years, but you instead chose to dip. I don’t need to over explain, or source the various practices of various Christian sects only for us to get mired down in apologetics. Christianity worships a blood god. Period.

Wait. When have I ever "dipped" on you about anything? I don't recall ever doing that. You can ask me anything about anything and I'll be happy to engage.

Right there in your above you said that Christianity worships a blood god. To which I said, "Yeah. For sure". and mentioned some of those instances such as blood sacrifice.

If you want to engage, then do it. I don't mind at all. I've never minded it.

Look. SS made a salient point and you responded with a dismissive comment when in reality he’s correct in his thinking. This is a cruel and vicious world by design, hence my pic above. Your faith and glib assertions change nothing. You’ll die thinking a glorious reunion awaits you, and this world will still turn and still cause unfathomable suffering for its inhabitants. That’s an irrefutable philosophical and physical fact.

- Doc

Dismissive comment: That's crap. That's what you're talking about, right? I explained that. KevinSim reminds me of the vortex that is Markk. I got fed up and took it out on Schmo.

Going through the rest of your comments there...

If this is a cruel and vicious world then why do you say it's by design if you are Atheist in your position?

I've always said (always on these boards and the boards before this one) that I'll either die and wake up in Heaven or I'll die and become soil content. Period end of story.

My faith changes quite a lot about how I function in this world. I don't know what you mean glib assertions. If you point out a glib assertion in any of my posts today, I'll be happy to address it.

Lastly, this here: this world will still turn and still cause unfathomable suffering for its inhabitants.

That's very likely going to be the case. This world is made up of human beings who are driven by self interest, greed, the amassing of wealth, that sort of thing. People who turn a blind eye to the suffering of others and people who seem to make it their life's work to cause it.

It's also made up of good and decent, caring, compassionate, and generous human beings. People who are willing to share what they have, give their money in support of others instead of hoarding it, people who will get out and serve others in small and large ways. Folks who want to relieve suffering.

In my view, this world doesn't suck. The negative side of human nature is what sucks.

Again, if you want to engage then do it. If you really don't then please don't make it look like you do and then when I respond, blow me off in response.

I'm right here,Cam. I've got another hour before I need to leave. I'll pop in and out to see if you are still commenting before I go.

[Jersey Girl]

Boy if you wanted to get under my skin you did a pretty good job of it, Cam. FTR here is a list of people I would absolutely "dip" on because they are a waste of time.

1. Markk (vortex)
2. Ajax (vortex)
3. MG (vortex)
4. KevinSim (how I evaluate him right now).
5. Binger (Something's wrong with the guy and I'm not even curious as to what it is)

I take that assertion seriously. I have never considered you a waste of time and I don't recall a single instance in which I dipped on you where the topic was religion. In fact I recall a time when I was waiting for you to reply one evening (I don't recall what the topic was) when I kept saying to the effect " Move it, will ya? "Hurry it up" and I went to the extent of messaging you to tell you why I needed to leave immediately. I'll just say it. I was having a panic attack at the time--drug withdrawal symptom. In hindsight that sounds crazy that I would message you to tell you but I did because I knew you were preparing to come back with a response and bring the exchanges to a close.

You are welcome to engage me on anything having to do with my religious beliefs in practice. So is everybody else and their literal dog here. I don't go around entering discussions and shoving the Bible down people's throats. If the topic is raised and particularly if I am asked directly, I will answer. I can give you the verse of scripture that I rely on for that practice.

ETA: 1 Peter 3:15 “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:”

So yeah, I take that seriously. Again. If you want to engage then do it. I you don't then please don't make it look like you do and then go "Nah" in my face.

[Jersey Girl]

So nothing. You must have a real life like the rest of the world, right? With regard to dipping. I've been on these types of boards for 23 years. Always male dominated, always with people who are far more well versed than I am in a number of areas, and always outnumbered by atheists. If I were in the habit of "dipping" (by which I think you mean darting out of and dropping my end of the exchanges) I would have been blown off this board as a non-serious poster within the first year never to be seen again because there were plenty of folks posting here who knew me from the very first board. If I were in the habit of backing down or backing away from a challenging topic, Gunnar wouldn't even give me the time of day here because it is he who has known me the longest. The very first post I ever dropped was to him and I didn't come up for air to the tune of a 300 post thread at the time.

And yet, here I am. Not dipping. Ready to answer. Any time.

As to apologetics. I don't read or listen to apologetics. I did read this guy and I think he had a radio show years ago, that Dutch guy who raised a big stink opposing Mormonism. Hank Hannegraff (sp?) years ago and disliked his approach. Actually, there is one guy on youtube I've listened to a few times but I think his answers are a little too slick. When I do read Christian posts on this board, I'm picking them apart in my head and challenging myself with the same questions. I'm not around here to preach and nod my head to everything that's put in front of my face. I'm here to THINK and yes, of course there's social interaction that's fun as well.

If I have an answer I'll give it. If it's a thing I don't know about, I'll say so. If I struggle with an issue I'll say I struggle with it. I maintain an effort not to let anyone go without a response who is asking a serious question or raised a serious issue. crap I even admitted that your dip comment got under my skin. I don't have a problem being honest and forthcoming.

And like I stated previously, I don't go around shoving the Bible down anyone's throat. I don't go around preaching here and telling people what they should do re:religion. When addressing even a political issue (well socio-political issue such as abortion for example), I will state what I think and believe as a Bible believing Christian and tell you exactly where I divert from the path. Because I sometimes do divert in my thinking because I am human like the rest of the world and I'm often conflicted on an issue.

I'm not here to witness to anyone. I probably should be but I am not cut out for it and I know it. I've never responded to an alter call in my entire life and I don't do it here.

So...if you have serious questions for me, then feel free to ask them. Only don't write me off with your predictions re: apologetics until you've given me a chance and heard me out. I will give you personalized answers like I do with any topic on this board and I'll stay with you until you are satisfied that you got your answers whether you agree or disagree with them. You pitch the balls and I'll do my best to hit them.

I do think I deserve more than your rhetoric here.

[/overkill]

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I want to reply to this. Pick me! Pick me!

Who creates the pain, inequality, and tragedy you are talking about?

There are several sources, the biggest one being Mother Nature.

There are several sources, the biggest one being Mother Nature.

That's crap.

What started this sidebar exchange was your dismissal of SS’s statement. It’s wholly fallacious unless you want to be a post-modernist and pretend suffering is solely a human concept.

Will you, or will you not, concede the world is a world of suffering by design, intelligent or otherwise?

- Doc

[Jersey Girl]

There are several sources, the biggest one being Mother Nature.

That's crap.

What started this sidebar exchange was your dismissal of SS’s statement. It’s wholly fallacious unless you want to be a post-modernist and pretend suffering is solely a human concept.

Will you, or will you not, concede the world is a world of suffering by design, intelligent or otherwise?

- Doc

Okay, hot shot. Here's a copy of the reply I made to Schmo.

Your unsupported assertion and denial of reality in this instance is crap.

So, I guess Hurricane Katrina wasn't a source of unnecessary pain? Or the source of Hurricane Katrina wasn't Mother Nature?

Or are you saying Mother Nature is a loving mother who would never cause any pain to her children?

Just wtf are you on about?

Sorry about the crap answer I gave you. You want to know wtf I was on about? I was on the heels of trying to wade through a post by KevinSim (who bears a strong resemblance to Markk in his posting "style") and I blew you off in the process.

So yeah, Mother Nature and natural disasters.I agree those cause pain and suffering. I don't really think in terms of Mother Nature. I think of it as the natural world.

That said, I think there's two perspectives that a Christian can take on natural disasters.

1. The Creation is corrupted therefore God is outside of the Creation and can't control what happens on the inside so to speak.

2. God does influence the Creation including the natural world and therefore God does visit natural disasters on humankind as I guess, a demonstration of power.

Whew. Okay, how do I evaluate this as a Bible believer? Again, whew. I'll give it a go.

1. Debunked by the Bible itself where God does bring on The Flood, parts the waters through Moses, and Jesus's reported ability to calm the storm...and every other account of God directing the natural elements under the sun including the sun.

2. Proven by the Bible itself as per what I wrote about.

I'd have to go with 2. I also think that (and something you didn't cover or maybe were about to cover at some point) humans cause the majority of pain and suffering in the world due to human qualities such as greed.

I probably left loose ends in the above, feel free to press me further in that regard. I don't mind at all if you do so.

Since that is apparently insufficient for you. Here's your comment and my reply:

You: What started this sidebar exchange was your dismissal of SS’s statement. It’s wholly fallacious unless you want to be a post-modernist and pretend suffering is solely a human concept.

Me: I don't know what a post-modernist even IS so I don't give a damn about it NOR did I say it was solely a human concept. Read that above reply I gave to Schmo wherein I stated and I'll do you the favor of bolding just one word that contradicts your claim:

I'd have to go with 2. I also think that (and something you didn't cover or maybe were about to cover at some point) humans cause the majority of pain and suffering in the world due to human qualities such as greed.

See that? I am saying I am going with the perspective in #2 and adding what I think that contributes to pain and suffering in the world. If that's not good enough, feel free to question me.

Here is your question and my response:

You: Will you, or will you not, concede the world is a world of suffering by design, intelligent or otherwise?

Me: YES. I stated so in my aligning myself with perspective #2. Here's a copy for your convenience even though it was right in front of your very eyes the first time. Now this makes 3 times.

2. God does influence the Creation including the natural world and therefore God does visit natural disasters on humankind as I guess, a demonstration of power.

One more time for good measure in case you missed that as well.

My answer to your question is YES. This world is a world of suffering by design, intelligent or otherwise.

And I submit to you, Cam, that this world is also a world of hope, human compassion, generosity and kindness.

If I haven't answered your question directly enough, please let me know. Feel free to question me further. Feel free to pummel me with direct questions, turn the heat up and pose questions laced with direct insults, do whatever you like. I've been through it all before thousands of times in over two decades.

I don't mind and don't dip. Hell buddy, if I were in the habit of shying away from tough customers I wouldn't be replying to you this very day and I base that on our earliest exchanges and you know exactly what I'm talking about. I didn't dip then, did I?

I'm about to leave now. I've got a date that may/may not get cancelled. In any case, I'll be back to see if you've got anything further to say to me.

[Jersey Girl]

Didn't get my call yet so I may be here longer than expected. Or not.

I thought I'd add this with regard to dipping. But only because of course you deserve a complete reply and I aim to deliver.

Topics I avoid:

1. Sex. Just one. Sex. I avoid those threads like the plague around here and why is that? Because on this male dominated board, the male posters often get shall we say...graphic. Don't want my screen name attached to those.

Dipping:

Dipping with regard to what...thinking I'm not up to a challenge or some such thing? You know, if I felt that way I could always ask someone to help me.

FTR: I have asked for help ONE time on this board in all it's versions. One stinking time. One. Years ago when Porter was slobbering all over a me and blowing me off as ignorant with regard to Mormonism. I asked Prof. Craig Criddle to reply. I didn't tell him what to say. I simply asked him to read what Porter was saying and make a reply. I asked him because he was on the very first board with me when I came online as my ADVERSARY with regard to to religious topics. He was in that first wave of posters who came at me on that board on the 300 post thread I mentioned.

He registered. He replied.

So stuff it, Cam.