Belief in God

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Ah. I picked up the conversation on page 12 and missed your post on page 11. So, that’s on me.

Since you believe your god does, in fact, create suffering and, if he were to be a real entity, uses his powers to levy suffering on the natural world, it follows that your god is evil by any metric. Eyeball parasites? Check. Flooding babies? Check. Toddler bone cancer? Check. Add in blood sacrifices and it’s fairly obvious your god isn’t a god of love, but rather a god of fear, suffering, and death.

On page 5 SS made the salient observation that the universe makes more sense without a god, and if there is a god he’s a piece of crap.

I don’t see how anything you admitted on page 11 moves the needle off that point. If your god creates all of us and all things, and he’s omniscient and omnipotent, then he can’t help but see his creations through the lens of all time - all things he’s created are working in conjunction with one another as designed within their purpose. Ostensibly your god created evil and suffering simply through design - it’s a feature, not a glitch. Hell, he even took bets with the devil on Job which ended up causing Job a tremendous amount of loss. The brutality of the Old Testament should put to rest any notions about your god’s nature.

And so I return to the OP. Is belief in this kind of deity more reasonable than non-belief? Well. in my opinion, no. To view the universe through a naturalistic lens actually gives me relief, because to believe in biblical god(s) fills me with an eldritch terror. You might as well tell me Cthulhu is real and it is, in fact, coming back any time now. It’s a bizarre and terrifying notion that, if there were believers in Cthulhu, would make me realize people are insane. Jehovah-Jesus isn’t that different from Cthulhu for me.

- Doc

[Some Schmo]

Sorry about the crap answer I gave you. You want to know wtf I was on about? I was on the heels of trying to wade through a post by KevinSim (who bears a strong resemblance to Markk in his posting "style") and I blew you off in the process.

Your explanation makes sense to me; I've been there (and have misdirected my annoyance). So, apology accepted.

So yeah, Mother Nature and natural disasters.I agree those cause pain and suffering. I don't really think in terms of Mother Nature. I think of it as the natural world.

Mother Nature is a metaphor for the natural world. There's no difference to me.

That said, I think there's two perspectives that a Christian can take on natural disasters.

1. The Creation is corrupted therefore God is outside of the Creation and can't control what happens on the inside so to speak.

There's one human-created assertion about a god.

2. God does influence the Creation including the natural world and therefore God does visit natural disasters on humankind as I guess, a demonstration of power.

There's another one. I acknowledge they have a Christian origin, but they're still human assertions. The Christian religion, after all, was created by people too.

Whew. Okay, how do I evaluate this as a Bible believer? Again, whew. I'll give it a go.

1. Debunked by the Bible itself where God does bring on The Flood, parts the waters through Moses, and Jesus's reported ability to calm the storm...and every other account of God directing the natural elements under the sun including the sun.

Agreed, from a theological standpoint, the first idea is untenable. But if you throw out other people's ideas about the origin's of the universe, it's as plausible as anything anyone else has come up with.

2. Proven by the Bible itself as per what I wrote about.

Agreed.

I'd have to go with 2. I also think that (and something you didn't cover or maybe were about to cover at some point) humans cause the majority of pain and suffering in the world due to human qualities such as greed.

I probably left loose ends in the above, feel free to press me further in that regard. I don't mind at all if you do so.

Sure, mankind causes tons of unnecessary pain (and that is a whole other discussion - why did a god create such crappy humans?), but that's a distraction. It doesn't absolve some creator of all the natural disasters and painful birth defects and etc, etc. This god people often talk about is purported to be loving and care about us. It's almost as though their belief depends on it.

[Jersey Girl]

Ah. I picked up the conversation on page 12 and missed your post on page 11. So, that’s on me.

Okay fine.

Since you believe your god does, in fact, create suffering and, if he were to be a real entity, uses his powers to levy suffering on the natural world, it follows that your god is evil by any metric. Eyeball parasites? Check. Flooding babies? Check. Toddler bone cancer? Check. Add in blood sacrifices and it’s fairly obvious your god isn’t a god of love, but rather a god of fear, suffering, and death.

When I read the Genesis account I see a God who created a perfect world (Garden) and made one rule. Humans broke the rule in disobedience and the world became corrupted. I have no way of knowing if that is simply ancient tribal myth, the ancients interpretation of what they saw as the state of the world communicated by orality or if it in fact happened exactly that way. I tend to swing between both choices, but I don't know for sure and I don't have a solid position. I think you see throughout the Old Testament a cycle of demands for obedience, humankind disobeying, and punishment. Yup. Then I have to think...if it's all crap from the human mind then why did they come up with the demands to start with? Is it ethnocentrism at work...my tribe is better than your tribe? We have a God who demands strict compliance, and therefore we're better than you? I don't get that. I also don't get what is up with the pillaging and killing to take over various lands in the name of Promise. That more than anything bothers me the most. In other words, it's not okay to kill unless God tells you to kill. I can't get with that and I question it.

The hardest part is thinking and believing that God created a world and on account of him/her/it knowing the end from the beginning KNEW that "man" would sin and then created the Temple concept right on down how to construct the Temple and how it worked, as well as rites and rituals and blood sacrifices as a way of atonement and also visited humankind with plagues and such for like how many thousands of years.

What it sounds like to me is either God (stay with me here) treated the Chosen ones like toddlers used cause/effect to teach them how to live and be because that's what the unenlightened and underdeveloped (?) ancients were like, or the Chosen people figured out that (I'm telling you stay with me, don't lose me) when someone spills out their blood they die so blood represents life...use the shedding of blood of animals as a symbolic way to die to the SELF and one's disobedience to the will of God, pay the price, and atone. OR...blood does actually represent life because God created humans with the life blood and so God knew humans could relate to what he was demanding of them symbolically and that God created a system of reward and punishment. As in God is issuing warnings throughout the Old Testament, extends grace, meets out punishments, and then when you get the the New Testament God has finally decided humans can't do it. Why didn't God know we couldn't do it from the start?

I would be a complete thorn in the side of any preacher at this point.

On page 5 SS made the salient observation that the universe makes more sense without a god, and if there is a god he’s a piece of crap.

Sure. I get that. But then once I've slogged my way through the Old Testament (and I've studied it but I'm no scholar) I get to Jesus. It seems to me that both you and Schmo are commenting on what you see in the Old Testament and forgetting that Christian's believe that Jesus is also God so I'd appreciate it if you would entertain this one question.

Would you say that Jesus is a piece of crap?

Note: I am not asking you to believe in Jesus. I am not asking you who you believe Jesus was or if Jesus even existed. I am asking you based on what you see in the New Testament if you would say that Jesus is a piece of crap.

I don’t see how anything you admitted on page 11 moves the needle off that point. If your god creates all of us and all things, and he’s omniscient and omnipotent, then he can’t help but see his creations through the lens of all time - all things he’s created are working in conjunction with one another as designed within their purpose. Ostensibly your god created evil and suffering simply through design - it’s a feature, not a glitch. Hell, he even took bets with the devil on Job which ended up causing Job a tremendous amount of loss. The brutality of the Old Testament should put to rest any notions about your god’s nature.

I think I answered this above before I saw this comment. I agree it sounds convoluted. That's why I tend to swing back and forth on it because I can see two basic explanations as I indicated above. God v. no god. God made it up. Man made God up. I get that.

And so I return to the OP. Is belief in this kind of deity more reasonable than non-belief? Well. in my opinion, no. To view the universe through a naturalistic lens actually gives me relief, because to believe in biblical god(s) fills me with an eldritch terror. You might as well tell me Cthulhu is real and it is, in fact, coming back any time now. It’s a bizarre and terrifying notion that, if there were believers in Cthulhu, would make me realize people are insane. Jehovah-Jesus isn’t that different from Cthulhu for me.

- Doc

I don't know what eldritch terror is, I'll look it up when I'm done replying here.

I totally get where you are coming from. I've read it thousands of times before just as you have read the words of believers. The beginning of my reply here to you sounds confusing because I find it confusing. I'm not one that's going to tell you well...no one knows the mind of God. That's what scripture says but how does that explain what **I** think vs. what confuses me when a human is asking the questions? If God created humans with a brain, I expect that He expects us to use them. And so I use my brain and I do find some things confusing. And I say so. I can't account for some things.

But let me tell you this and there's probably at least some believers here who would gasp at this but it's true. I often feel like Christianity would be better off without attaching itself to the Old Testament to start with. Why? First of all, the scriptures that made it into the Cannon were chosen by men, Council at Nicea and all. Why and for what purpose? Some will tell you that it's because it supports a consistent system of belief. Okay, fine. But I don't see it that way at least I haven't seen it that way at this point. I'm just being honest here.

I mean you have a God who created a world that he knew (I'm tired of capitalizing "he") would fall, tried a system of rules, strict obedience, rewards and punishments, visits plagues and natural disasters upon humankind as punishment and a demonstration of power...the authoritarian God and then we get to the New Testament where God decided humans can't hack it, decides to do away with it all (sort of) and start teaching us instead of ordering us around and become more of an authoritative parent and we're now Christians.

I am here to tell you. If you asked me to articulate the same things tomorrow, I'd probably come back with a different explanation. I think about these things quite a lot and look at the in different ways.

More than that...if you presented me with just the New Testament as an isolated set of texts, I do not see Jesus as portrayed in scripture as a piece of crap. I see Jesus as first and foremost a teacher and one whose teachings resonate with me. Totally resonate with me.

I'm both wandering and wondering here...do the teachings of Jesus resonate with me for exactly the reason that I stated above? Because I, like the ancients, don't respond well to "When I say jump, you say how high" authoritarian guidance but I DO respond to authoritative teaching "I want you to do this and this is why" and that's why God decided to shift course? I don't see anywhere in Old Testament scripture where God is a god who doesn't change his mind.

So, did I kill myself here or did I kill you?

I can well imagine the world without a God in it. I get it. I really do. But when I go to the words of Jesus, I both think and believe that the world would be better off if we actually listened to his counsel and acted on it. Do you get what I'm saying? By now you should know who you're talking to here and I think you know why it resonates with me...even when I suck at trying to rise to it. It resonates deeply with me.

I still want you to tell me if you think Jesus is a piece of crap and if you do think that, why you think that.

[Jersey Girl]

Schmo...I see you replied to me. I need a break. I'll come back to it. I think I need to regenerate a few brain cells after trying to make a coherent post to Cam that isn't actually coherent.

So long as there exists caffeine, there will exist the Jersey Girl.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I still want you to tell me if you think Jesus is a piece of crap and if you do think that, why you think that.

I have to ask a clarifying question before I answer your question, because it matters. Do you believe in the literalness of the Trinity?

Also, I hope you see that you actually parroted my views of the jewish god Jehovah, just written out in a congenial way. If Jehovah is, in fact, omniscient and omnipotent, everything he does is, has to be really, done on purpose and with a perfect knowledge of his actions regardless of the particular creation and any timeline in which it exists.

On a side note, my own philosophical take on morality is that we’re all a manifestation of the universe observing itself, or an A.I. who chooses to experience life in all its various forms, and so suffering is by design and the universe/A.I. is amoral and indifferent to our human sense of suffering. It’s not a happy worldview, but it’s the best I got.

- Doc

[Jersey Girl]

I still want you to tell me if you think Jesus is a piece of crap and if you do think that, why you think that.

I have to ask a clarifying question before I answer your question, because it matters. Do you believe in the literalness of the Trinity?

Uh there is more than one view of the Trinity. I believe that the Trinity three represents forms of the same mind with the same purpose. Or I could say three forms of being that function in relation to humankind with the for the same purpose. Is that what you're asking?

Also, I hope you see that you actually parroted my views of the jewish god Jehovah, just written out in a congenial way. If Jehovah is, in fact, omniscient and omnipotent, everything he does is, has to be really, done on purpose and with a perfect knowledge of his actions regardless of the particular creation and any timeline in which it exists.

I knew exactly what I was saying.

On a side note, my own philosophical take on morality is that we’re all a manifestation of the universe observing itself, or an A.I. who chooses to experience life in all its various forms, and so suffering is by design and the universe/A.I. is amoral and indifferent to our human sense of suffering. It’s not a happy worldview, but it’s the best I got.

- Doc

I think there's several other alternatives to be had not the least of which has to do with cause/effect, conflict theory, and the inherent will or drive (God put it there or you know, survival of the fittest type thing and no only that but in the case of humans at least (though I think this is observable in animals as well) the humans who figure out how best to survive which brings me full circle to cause/effect and conflict theory. I think it's all the same.

I will ask again: Do you think Jesus as he is portrayed in scripture is a piece of crap?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hrm. A “piece of crap.” Was Jesus a piece of crap …

Well. If Jesus really were a triune being either manifested as the jewish god on Earth, or he’s just in lock step with him, and taken in context of introducing the soul crushing notion of post-death punishment then yes, without a doubt.

If taken as a solitary non-divine jewish man who cared about the lowest among men, introducing teachings that attempted to move humanity away from its own worst tendencies then no, I don’t believe he was a piece of crap. I especially like his stance toward children, much more so given how children were generally treated in that era.

It’s complicated for sure, because there was also megalomaniacal hubris, divisiveness, and a sort of suicidal devotion to humility that doesn’t make any sense when it comes to correct moral behavior. If I were to hear a man speak like Jesus, without any Jesus-context (let’s say I had never been exposed to the Bible nor Christian teachings), I’d assume he was delusional at best, and a cultist at worst. In that vein I’d consider him ‘piece of crap-ty’.

Apologies for the not-so-straightforward answer, but I’m attempting to communicate in good faith.

- Doc

[Jersey Girl]

This is what I asked you with a special note below the question.

Would you say that Jesus is a piece of crap?

Note: I am not asking you to believe in Jesus. I am not asking you who you believe Jesus was or if Jesus even existed. I am asking you based on what you see in the New Testament if you would say that Jesus is a piece of crap.

Hrm. A “piece of crap.” Was Jesus a piece of crap …

Well. If Jesus really were a triune being either manifested as the jewish god on Earth, or he’s just in lock step with him, and taken in context of introducing the soul crushing notion of post-death punishment then yes, without a doubt.

If taken as a solitary non-divine jewish man who cared about the lowest among men, introducing teachings that attempted to move humanity away from its own worst tendencies then no, I don’t believe he was a piece of crap. I especially like his stance toward children, much more so given how children were generally treated in that era.

It’s complicated for sure, because there was also megalomaniacal hubris, divisiveness, and a sort of suicidal devotion to humility that doesn’t make any sense when it comes to correct moral behavior. If I were to hear a man speak like Jesus, without any Jesus-context (let’s say I had never been exposed to the Bible nor Christian teachings), I’d assume he was delusional at best, and a cultist at worst. In that vein I’d consider him ‘piece of crap-ty’.

Apologies for the not-so-straightforward answer, but I’m attempting to communicate in good faith.

- Doc

I appreciate the response and will take it up with you again likely tomorrow or Friday during the day at some point. Or later evening since I'm working every night. I share that information so you know that I didn't "dip".

While I waited to see if you replied, I went on to listen to autopsy reports. I'll get back here.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I am asking you based on what you see in the New Testament if you would say that Jesus is a piece of crap.

My answer is based off the information provided in the New Testament. I didn’t provide referential scripture because I didn’t want to get bogged down in potential nitpicking over biblical interpretations of said non-quoted New Testament scriptures.

As an aside, I really don’t get how Christians can throw the Old Testament under the bus. Early Christianity is just a protestant version of judaism; trying to detangle it from judaism is akin to detangling early Mormonism from Masonry.

- Doc

[Vēritās]

It was a rhetorical question.

Veritas, rhetorical questions are questions asked to make a point. Are you trying to say that it makes as much sense to believe in the spaghetti monster as it does to believe in God?

Yes.