Question for KevinSim- biblical gospel articulation request

[KevinSim]

After all unless he is an unusual sort of Mormon he understands himself as a Christian.

I may be an unusual sort of Latter-day Saint, but I do understand myself as a Christian, albeit not a traditional one.

[Philo Sofee]

Apparently it appears to me that Jesus in the Bible means almost nothing to you to invest any kind of significant time into learning because your so busy in your own religious beliefs.

Philo Sofee, does the Bible tell the truth about what Jesus said, and about what Jesus did, and in general about Jesus?

That's a great question. I have gone back and forth on this for years, and don't personally have an opinion, as I am looking at who is saying what and on what basis they say so on their evidentiary basis. I used to think it was all history, but now, not probably so. We just have to face the music there isn't a look of investigative ways to see and know what really happened then and there.

[dastardly stem]

KevinSim's comments are completely understandable to me. I don't know if all those words put together mean much either. I'd ask for starters, what does saved mean? God makes a plan. Decides to create characters who are sentient. He messages to them, in odd ways, meaning difficult to believe ways, that they were created by him, and apparently He created a place for them to live. During their lives they will sin...inevitably. And sin keeps them miserable and will result in them being separated from God for forever. The only way to escape the results of that sin is to believe God sent a magic guy, to earth, at a random time to a random place and that magic guy was sacrificed for sins of all people who ever live. If you believe this magic guy who demanded everyone love him more than anyone else, then God will decide to not count your sins against you. How is grace even involved on Evangelical Christianity? It all seems the opposite of grace to me. I guess its grace to those who believe something that seems rather silly if you think about it? But to most of the rest of us, it's all simply a plan by God to condemn humanity. Also on Evangelicalism it seems people have to put it just right in order to demonstrate they are really saved. if one believes Jesus but thinks they have to work for God to be saved, then Evangelicalism sees that as evidence that that person is not saved because they apparently do not fully respect the grace of God and his Jesus. They ultimately do not believe correctly. Believing, but believing wrong, will ultimately end in one's own condemnation.

Mormonism is a bit different, but as I see it equally foolish.

[Kishkumen]

All of this is very interesting. I love these kinds of questions because they afford us the opportunity to question our own assumptions about religion, different systems of belief and practice, and how they relate to each other.

First of all, if someone were to undertake the criticism of another group in any substantive way, it is important to have one's facts straight. You should always ask, "Do I really understand the group thoroughly?" or "Do I see all of the good in this as well as the bad?" Inevitably this kind of discussion will be subjective, but it should be fair and well informed.

Do I understand Evangelicalism? No. Not really. Not in the way that would be necessary to have something truly intelligent and accurate to say about the topic. I can speak in terms of my impressions based on the few things I know. I can talk about why I would not choose to be an Evangelical, too. But, there is really nothing I can say that would be objective about the value of Evangelical religion in an absolute sense.

I can say that I have encountered and had very positive interactions with very good Evangelical people. To the extent that this goodness is a product, or at least encouraged and polished, by their Evangelicalism, Evangelicalism has been a good thing. On the other hand, I know that Evangelical religion has played a big role in some of the worst of American political discourse and ideological bullying. But, you know, join the club. Politics is a cesspool.

I would not become an Evangelical Christian because I do not see the Bible as having the kind of unique importance and authority that Evangelicals seem to attribute to it. I am much more sympathetic to the broader conception of a Christianity deriving from tradition, scripture, and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that one finds in Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity.

That said, I think that Mormonism's contribution to Christianity is not its doctrine of Deity, which is poorly worked out, but rather the role of the family in its soteriology. I know that people nitpick on this issue and want to deprive Mormonism of any credit for this, as though seeing your family in heaven covers the topic of what Mormonism offers, but that only reveals the ignorance of critics on this point. It is not true that other Christian faiths place the family in the same kind of role in the salvation of the human family that Mormonism does.

This is not to say that Mormonism is in any way better than other Christian groups except perhaps in the subjective view of those who enjoy their Mormon faith, but it is to argue that there is something distinctive about the role Mormonism assigns the family in the story of salvation. Like it or not, there is something distinctive about it that one ought not to dismiss.

[Rivendale]

KevinSim's comments are completely understandable to me. I don't know if all those words put together mean much either. I'd ask for starters, what does saved mean? God makes a plan. Decides to create characters who are sentient. He messages to them, in odd ways, meaning difficult to believe ways, that they were created by him, and apparently He created a place for them to live. During their lives they will sin...inevitably. And sin keeps them miserable and will result in them being separated from God for forever. The only way to escape the results of that sin is to believe God sent a magic guy, to earth, at a random time to a random place and that magic guy was sacrificed for sins of all people who ever live. If you believe this magic guy who demanded everyone love him more than anyone else, then God will decide to not count your sins against you. How is grace even involved on Evangelical Christianity? It all seems the opposite of grace to me. I guess its grace to those who believe something that seems rather silly if you think about it? But to most of the rest of us, it's all simply a plan by God to condemn humanity. Also on Evangelicalism it seems people have to put it just right in order to demonstrate they are really saved. if one believes Jesus but thinks they have to work for God to be saved, then Evangelicalism sees that as evidence that that person is not saved because they apparently do not fully respect the grace of God and his Jesus. They ultimately do not believe correctly. Believing, but believing wrong, will ultimately end in one's own condemnation.

Mormonism is a bit different, but as I see it equally foolish.

[/quote]The only way to escape the results of that sin is to believe God sent a magic guy, to earth, at a random time to a random place and that magic guy was sacrificed for sins of all people who ever live. [/quote]





Tim Minchen?

[JohnW]

It seems like the OP may be a round about way to ask the age-old question, "Are Mormons Christian?" The way I like to explain it is in an analogous question, "Are bananas berries?" Before you chuckle too much, hear me out. By the biological definition, bananas are in fact berries. But if you ask someone if they want a berry and then hand them a banana, they might be upset. The everyday definition is different than the strict biological definition.

By the simplest definition of what it is to be a Christian, yes, no one disagrees that Latter-day Saints consider themselves Cristian. If you ask a Mainstream Christian if they want to go to a Christian church on Sunday and take them to the local LDS ward, they might be upset.

In short, it is a question that can't be answered without digging deeper into comparative theology. It may also require a better understanding of why the individual is asking the question in the first place.

[Philo Sofee]

Kishkumen
Do I understand Evangelicalism? No. Not really. Not in the way that would be necessary to have something truly intelligent and accurate to say about the topic. I can speak in terms of my impressions based on the few things I know. I can talk about why I would not choose to be an Evangelical, too. But, there is really nothing I can say that would be objective about the value of Evangelical religion in an absolute sense.

I agree entirely, and it is important to understand other groups, which is why I have in the works an Evangelical Baptist minister to be on my show. We will make it happen early next year, sometime in January. I mean, I love the idea of having all voices air their views, so I am doing so with my show. I am really excited because I have had some atheists, some Mormons, some Freemasons, and now I will bring in some Evangelical Ministers for their say so. The best of all talk show shows in my opinion!
I have asked him to look up some favorite Bible passages and do some Greek exegesis on them, explain his view of salvation, God, the Bible, etc. It has potential to be a good educational point of view. When I was in his office, I saw several Greek exegetical and historical books on his shelves that I also have, and pointed that out to him, which surprised him that I go into that depth. So I will guide him into the depth I am looking for, and he appears to be a good man to do so.

[huckelberry]

Kishkumen
Do I understand Evangelicalism? No. Not really. Not in the way that would be necessary to have something truly intelligent and accurate to say about the topic. I can speak in terms of my impressions based on the few things I know. I can talk about why I would not choose to be an Evangelical, too. But, there is really nothing I can say that would be objective about the value of Evangelical religion in an absolute sense.

I agree entirely, and it is important to understand other groups, which is why I have in the works an Evangelical Baptist minister to be on my show. We will make it happen early next year, sometime in January. I mean, I love the idea of having all voices air their views, so I am doing so with my show. I am really excited because I have had some atheists, some Mormons, some Freemasons, and now I will bring in some Evangelical Ministers for their say so. The best of all talk show shows in my opinion!
I have asked him to look up some favorite Bible passages and do some Greek exegesis on them, explain his view of salvation, God, the Bible, etc. It has potential to be a good educational point of view. When I was in his office, I saw several Greek exegetical and historical books on his shelves that I also have, and pointed that out to him, which surprised him that I go into that depth. So I will guide him into the depth I am looking for, and he appears to be a good man to do so.

There may be more than one difficulty in understanding Evangelical Christianity. The first that comes to my mind is the thought that it is not a unified group or unified understanding of beliefs. In the past I have viewed myself as EV but with the common stampede toward Trump I cannot consider myself as part of that group, what ever in the devil is going on in their mind.

Prior to Trump it was still obvious that differences in EV groups are quite large. I have a few times gone to a church and found it disturbingly alien. That does not even include word of faith movement folks who I view as heretical.

Years ago upon leaving the comfort of atheism I felt a real need to try to understand both the Catholic tradition and the Protestant separation. I think I managed a tolerable beginning to that though it is a subject which can be made very large, too large. EV shares the Protestant basics and the differences in Protestant basic which appeared with the reformation. Protestant was hardly one point of view then and is less so now.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Years ago upon leaving the comfort of atheism …

That’s an interesting statement. Would you explain why atheism was comfortable for you? I’m an atheist, and while I’m certain there’s not a psychopathic god out there doing whatever the Torah/Bible/Quran/Book of Mormon claims it’s doing, it’s not comfortable for me in the least. I have to make peace with annihilation, which is an ongoing process.

- Doc

[huckelberry]

Years ago upon leaving the comfort of atheism …

That’s an interesting statement. Would you explain why atheism was comfortable for you? I’m an atheist, and while I’m certain there’s not a psychopathic god out there doing whatever the Torah/Bible/Quran/Book of Mormon claims it’s doing, it’s not comfortable for me in the least. I have to make peace with annihilation, which is an ongoing process.

- Doc

Doc, reasonable question. My first thought was I was barely past age 30 at the time so the encroachment of death was youthfully out of mind. Well I was of course aware of the danger of a sudden death of the kind one tries to avoid. That is different than the inevitable one. I think we all have struggle coming to terms with the inevitable one.

I grew up oriented to a scientific world view and with scientific interests.Atheism solves religious problems and presents a unified coherent world view. Would it be horrible to confess that I do not have a mind completely free of atheist viewpoints? It is always sitting there as a possibility. I do not fear or fight it. It is sort of an old friend.