What exactly Is Wrong with Polygamy anyway?

[KevinSim]

Can anyone imagine a Mormon woman asking the question, "What exactly Is Wrong with Polygamy anyway?".

Yes I can! I had a single mother my wife and I hometaught back in Seattle in the early 1990s who actually said something to that effect.

With all due respect Kevin, your question seems to highlight either an unwillingness or inability to put yourself in other people's shoes.

The irony that I see is that that is precisely the way I see the people on this forum who argue against polygamy.

[Dr. Shades]

Nothing inherently, just so long as all participants are consenting adults who aren't being religiously coerced into doing so.

Neither of which, as you well know, was the case the way Mormons practiced it.

Ah, another vote against arranged marriages like Reb Tevye and Golde had in "Fiddler on the Roof."

??? Reb Tevye had a plural wife, the way Mormons practiced it?

I think I've figured you out. You're not human; you can't be. You're actually a very clever terrier mix who happened to discover that little black marks appear on the screen when you put your paws on the keyboard.

IHAQ, are you aware that monogamy was healthy for Shirley Cook and people like her who wanted very badly to raise children but never had the opportunity to? You can't just sweep Shirley under the rug because she never married.

So, she only wanted to raise children? She could've picked up a guy at the bar anytime she wanted a child. Or, to avoid violating her religious beliefs, she could've been artificially inseminated--they have sperm banks for just that reason. So, she had plenty of opportunities to raise children. If she didn't, that's entirely on her.

That being the case, I'm thinking she wanted something more than just to raise children, in spite of what you say. It sounds to me like she wanted to get married and have a relationship. If she didn't, perhaps she was either too picky or maybe had an abrasive personality that turned potential suitors off.

[IHAQ]

Kevin, are you aware of any examples where plural marreiage has worked and been healthy for all the participants and the wider society?

No, I'm not. In the interests of full disclosure I have ancestors who had polygamous marriages. I'm pretty sure they worked, but I have no idea whether their marriage was healthy "for all the participants and the wider society." So what?

So it answers your initial question about what exactly is wrong with Polygamy - there is no evidence that it is beneficial to all involved. But there is plenty of evidence that polygamy leads to the abuse and/or dissatisfaction of some or all female participants.

The Church has thrown your ancestors plural marriages under the bus with statements like..."I condemn it [polygamy], yes, as a practice, because I think it is not doctrinal." (President Hinckley). According to Hinckley, your ancestor committed adultery and was in apostasy. It's against the Family Proclamation. What's interesting is where Hinckley's statement leaves those members sealed to more than one wife.

IHAQ, are you aware that monogamy was healthy for Shirley Cook and people like her who wanted very badly to raise children but never had the opportunity to? You can't just sweep Shirley under the rug because she never married.

Who is Shirley Cook?

Assuming she is an unmarried single LDS, the Church has promised women in that position and those for whom childbirth isn't feasible, that they will be mothers in heaven providing they keep their covenants.

Some who are listening to this message are probably saying, “But what about me?” We know that many worthy and wonderful Latter-day Saints currently lack the ideal opportunities and essential requirements for their progress. Singleness, childlessness, death, and divorce frustrate ideals and postpone the fulfillment of promised blessings. In addition, some women who desire to be full-time mothers and homemakers have been literally compelled to enter the full-time work force. But these frustrations are only temporary. The Lord has promised that in the eternities no blessing will be denied his sons and daughters who keep the commandments, are true to their covenants, and desire what is right.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng
Is Shirley Cook impatient? Does she not believe Elder Oaks? What "rug" do you believe she is being swept under?

[Meadowchik]

Coercive polygamy is the issue with Mormonism.

So you're talking Reb Tevye and Golde versus Tzeitel and Motel. It was wrong for Tevye's and Golde's parents to arrange their marriage? It seemed like it turned out okay in the end. And by the way, I had a bishop tell me who he thought I should marry. I had no trouble telling him no way. All the pressure that bishop and Brigham Young could bring to bear on the matter couldn't force me or anyone else to say yes in the temple sealing ceremony.

I'm talking about Joseph Smith, the doctrine and covenants, and the people since then and until now who use both as sources to legitimize abusive forms of polygamy.

[dastardly stem]

But in the long run, if society embraces that as the norm...it'll lead, I'd wager, to exploitation of women.

Dastardly Stem, you didn't really answer my question. What is it about the act of marrying a second wife that makes the husband not be exploiting his first wife before the polygamous marriage, but makes him exploit one of the two (or both) after the polygamous marriage?

Admittedly I don't understand the question. Who knows if the first wife is exploited by the husband before he marries another? My guess is if he moves to marry another woman, he's already doing some exploitation of his wife (using her to his own advantage). no one says a man can't exploit his wife. My point is simply, men have been given certain privilege in our world and can easily exploit women. A man marrying 2 women is a pretty sure sign that exploitation of women is happening. I'm not saying it's not possible two women can't agree to marry one man and somehow it works out well for them. I'm suggesting in this hypothetical of one man marrying two women, it is most likely that exploitation of women is happening. That'll always be the rule, i'd think.

[Doctor Steuss]

The math doesn’t really work out too well when there’s one person always getting more than 100%, and two-or-more people who never will.

Doctor Steuss, you're saying that two or more people will never get more than 100%?

In regards to spousal support/effort/benefits/partnership/intimacy, yes.

[KevinSim]

Can anyone imagine a Mormon woman asking the question, "What exactly Is Wrong with Polygamy anyway?".

Yes I can! I had a single mother my wife and I hometaught back in Seattle in the early 1990s who actually said something to that effect.

With all due respect Kevin, your question seems to highlight either an unwillingness or inability to put yourself in other people's shoes.

The irony that I see is that that is precisely the way I see the people on this forum who argue against polygamy. They have great empathy for the women in monogamous marriages, but no empathy at all for the Shirley Cooks of the world, the women for whom marriage and raising their own children are high priorities, but who end up never married and childless. Have you tried putting yourself in those women's shoes, McJathan? Or are they somehow subhuman because they never got married? Maybe we can just sweep them under the rug and pretend they don't exist. People like Shirley Cook don't matter, right?

[KevinSim]

Polygamy for many was looked at with revulsion. Some even yearned for the grave rather than partake in the practice.

That, remarkably, was Brigham Young.

Trickster god is at it again. One must reject the image on the heart and actually turn the moral compass 180 degrees. God seems to be a psychopath.

Polygamy doesn't feel right. It's a horrible thing to ask a woman to share her husband. But does that mean that the right thing is to pretend that the women that want to marry but never have the opportunity, simply don't exist?

[Manetho]

It seems to me the most important rebuttals to Kevin Sim's arguments are these questions from Physics Guy, which Kevin has not responded to:

1) Nothing in First-World countries is stopping any number of women from cohabiting with any number of men today. If there are lots of involuntarily single women today who would rather share a man than have no man, they are free to do that. Do you notice it happening a lot?

2) Are you saying that historical Mormon polygamy was sustained by a large fraction of men enthusiastically opting for lifelong celibacy? Or are you acknowledging that historical Mormon polygamy was sustained by pedogamy, and proposing for modern society a new kind of polygamy that has nothing to do with Mormon history?

[KevinSim]

Teens. Pre-teens. Funny how men keep using polygamy to lasso in children to satisfy their lusts. Unfortunately, the damage to those children will last forever. To act like this kind of behavior is an anomaly when polygamy is practiced is to deny reality.

In my OP I asked what was wrong with three adults of any gender combination entering into a polygamous marriage. If this was ever incorporated into a bill that went before Congress, it would need to have a provision requiring that all three participants be adults.