What exactly Is Wrong with Polygamy anyway?

[Marcus]

How very…MG2.0-like. Two peas in a disingenuous pod.

Should we consider the possibility that KS simply cannot keep track of where he is in the thread, which arguments he has deployed, and which answers have been given to his questions?

I realize that the behaviour that we consistently see strongly suggests the aquatic creature, but KS may just be overwhelmed. Of course, if that is the case then we could say it's his own doing, but at least it would not be disingenuous or malicious.

Good points. Yes, I would consider that possibility.

[KevinSim]

Maybe someone should contact the author of the essay and ask her/him how s/he came to the conclusion that everybody who wanted to be married was married.

Why is it the responsibility of others to find out why a source you provided made an unsupported assertion?

It isn't the responsibility of others to find out why a source I provided made an unsupported assertion. Nobody is required to do any research at all into questions like that. But it is my opinion that everybody has a right to a fair trial, even polygamists, even in the court of public opinion, so if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints produces an essay on its website that someone disagrees with, and that someone doesn't talk with the author of that essay to try to find out why that author said what s/he said, then that someone has no right to pass judgement on that essay. I don't pass judgement on it. I recognize that I could be wrong. I'd like to research it myself. There's something to be said for a life spent entirely on that kind of research. But I'm a computer engineering student at Utah Valley University, for goodness sake. This forum is just a hobby I do in my spare time. I don't have time to hunt down the author of a Gospel Topics essay. And even if I did, my wife would kill me if she found out I was doing that kind of research on polygamy issues. So I recognize that I don't have all the information on the Gospel Topics essay, and therefore refrain from passing judgement on it, one way or the other.

[huckelberry]

from web site , Wives of Joseph Smith
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/Why.htm

In his 1943 book, “Evidences and Reconciliations, Apostle John A. Widtsoe explained:

“Plural marriage has been a subject of wide and frequent comment. Members of the Church unfamiliar with its history, and many non-members, have set up fallacious reasons for the origin of this system of marriage among the Latter-day Saints.

The most common of these conjectures is that the Church, through plural marriage, sought to provide husbands for its large surplus of female members. The implied assumption in this theory, that there have been more female than male members in the Church, is not supported by existing evidence. On the contrary, there seem always to have been more males than females in the Church...

The United States census records from 1850 to 1940, and all available Church records, uniformly show a preponderance of males in Utah, and in the Church. Indeed, the excess in Utah has usually been larger than for the whole United States, as would be expected in a pioneer state. The births within the Church obey the usual population law - a slight excess of males...

The theory that plural marriage was a consequence of a surplus of female Church members fails from lack of evidence...

Another conjecture is that the people were few in number and that the Church, desiring greater numbers, permitted the practice so that a phenomenal increase in population could be attained. This is not defensible, since there was no surplus of women...”

Elder Widtsoe goes on to explain the reason he believes polygamy was practiced: “The principle of plural marriage came by revelation from the Lord. That is the reason why the Church practiced it.” (Widtsoe, John A., “Evidences And

[drumdude]

The desire to once again polygamate is strong in some Mormon men.

It’s the only heavenly sanctioned perverse sexual desire of the “natural man.”

Don’t you dare masturbate, but you can take another 5 more wives to have sex with in heaven.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Why don’t you write Brian Hales a note, KS, and get these answers for yourself instead of tasking the forum to do it? I mean, you are interested in getting your questions answered by him, right?

- Doc

[Marcus]

Why is it the responsibility of others to find out why a source you provided made an unsupported assertion?

It isn't the responsibility of others to find out why a source I provided made an unsupported assertion. Nobody is required to do any research at all into questions like that. But it is my opinion that everybody has a right to a fair trial, even polygamists, even in the court of public opinion, so if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints produces an essay on its website that someone disagrees with, and that someone doesn't talk with the author of that essay to try to find out why that author said what s/he said, then that someone has no right to pass judgement on that essay. I don't pass judgement on it. I recognize that I could be wrong. I'd like to research it myself. There's something to be said for a life spent entirely on that kind of research. But I'm a computer engineering student at Utah Valley University, for goodness sake. This forum is just a hobby I do in my spare time. I don't have time to hunt down the author of a Gospel Topics essay. And even if I did, my wife would kill me if she found out I was doing that kind of research on polygamy issues. So I recognize that I don't have all the information on the Gospel Topics essay, and therefore refrain from passing judgement on it, one way or the other.

That’s nonsense. You presented the essay as a source of information, repeatedly, and when people pointed out its issues, you argued they should confirm the essay. Repeatedly. Your whole analysis above is facile and silly, and reflects a serious lack of understanding of how knowledge is acquired and verified. It only adds evidence that you are indeed sealioning here. As a hobby. While a student in college. How embarrassing for you that you think trolling is an appropriate hobby, but students do a lot of dumb things so maybe you’ll grow out of it.

[huckelberry]

This forum is just a hobby I do in my spare time. I don't have time to hunt down the author of a Gospel Topics essay. And even if I did, my wife would kill me if she found out I was doing that kind of research on polygamy issues. So I recognize that I don't have all the information on the Gospel Topics essay, and therefore refrain from passing judgement on it, one way or the other.

Kevin this statement about your wife sounds like you are quite aware of problems with polygamy.

[Res Ipsa]

Why is it the responsibility of others to find out why a source you provided made an unsupported assertion?

It isn't the responsibility of others to find out why a source I provided made an unsupported assertion. Nobody is required to do any research at all into questions like that. But it is my opinion that everybody has a right to a fair trial, even polygamists, even in the court of public opinion, so if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints produces an essay on its website that someone disagrees with, and that someone doesn't talk with the author of that essay to try to find out why that author said what s/he said, then that someone has no right to pass judgement on that essay. I don't pass judgement on it. I recognize that I could be wrong. I'd like to research it myself. There's something to be said for a life spent entirely on that kind of research. But I'm a computer engineering student at Utah Valley University, for goodness sake. This forum is just a hobby I do in my spare time. I don't have time to hunt down the author of a Gospel Topics essay. And even if I did, my wife would kill me if she found out I was doing that kind of research on polygamy issues. So I recognize that I don't have all the information on the Gospel Topics essay, and therefore refrain from passing judgement on it, one way or the other.

Being a computer engineering student isn't an excuse for failing to develop solid reasoning skills. You're going to need them whatever you choose to do, and you should take some kind of class in critical reasoning or argumentation.

A claim, in and of itself, does not deserve a "fair trial." If you approach life that way, you're going to be bogged down conducting a near infinite number of "fair trials" on 100% BS claims. A claim not backed up by evidence deserves to be dismissed. The claim in the essay should be easily recognizable to you as an after the fact rationalization. Polygamy in Nauvoo and Salt Lake has been heavily studied. It doesn't to take much googling and reading to confirm that nobody conducted polling of LDS women in the 1800s concerning their attitudes on marriage or plural marriage. We don't have an idea of what they wanted because the men who controlled the church and the government didn't care what they wanted. When a claim is based on data that we know can't exist, then no one should take it seriously.

Even worse, in this case, is the fact that the claim in the essay contradicts actual evidence. The rationale used in the essay assumes that there was a shortage of men to marry. But the evidence shows that LDS men outnumbered LDS women in the Territory and in the church throughout the period that Polygamy was practiced in Utah.

The essay is having the exact effect on you that it is intended to accomplish: give you a simple to understand explanation that will satisfy you and keep you from looking at and thinking about the actual evidence. By "keeping your mind open" on an anonymous essay until you can interview the author, which you will almost certainly never do, is tantamount to accepting the essay at face value. It's the very goal of Mopologetics -- as long as the faithful believe there is some possibility that the church is true, they'll stay in the fold.

You've been given perfectly good explanations for why polygamy, practiced entirely as polygyny within a top down hierarchy based on authority from God held only by the men is a bad idea, replete with real world examples. All you've done is played "No True Scotsman" and gish galloped from one topic to another. Not only that, you've known the best answer to your own question all the time, as evidenced by the fact that you know how your wife would react. Ask her how she feels about you marrying a single LDS woman so that all the women that want to be married, can.

Nobody's asking you to become a full-time researcher. But when you start a subject and carry on the argument for pages and pages, "I"m too busy" sounds like a cop out.

[Marcus]

…Polygamy in Nauvoo and Salt Lake has been heavily studied. It doesn't to take much googling and reading to confirm that nobody conducted polling of LDS women in the 1800s concerning their attitudes on marriage or plural marriage. We don't have an idea of what they wanted because the men who controlled the church and the government didn't care what they wanted….

This is a really interesting point. There was no polling, I agree, but there is coming to light, at least in my family’s genealogical research efforts, a fair amount of very specific anecdotal evidence, in the form of journals.

For an example, researchers in my family have recently been transcribing journals of the time and distributing the accounts. Perhaps not shockingly, the details of polygamous marriages come through loud and clear in these individual accounts and they do NOT match the whitewashed stories the LDS church tells of polygamous families.

Several accounts came from early wives who fell out of favor and who subsequently weren’t supported financially, leading to horrifying situations for the women and their children. More than one of my ancestors refused to live with a man who treated them badly after marrying additional wives, and told stories of surviving by having to go back to their parents’ homes, in very difficult circumstances.

The story that really broke my heart though, was one compiled by putting together several journals. A first wife, while in her early 30s and pregnant with her 7th child, had to endure the ignominy of her late-30s aged husband leaving for a week so he could court an 18 year old in an arranged vacation-type setting. He brought her home and married her, with his heavily pregnant wife in attendance, and then gave all his attention to his new bride. A couple of weeks later, she died shortly after a difficult childbirth. The consensus of all, including the extremely TBM compiler of the journal entries, was that she died of a broken heart.

That story haunts me still.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

The story that really broke my heart though, was one compiled by putting together several journals. A first wife, while in her early 30s and pregnant with her 7th child, had to endure the ignominy of her late-30s aged husband leaving for a week so he could court an 18 year old in an arranged vacation-type setting. He brought her home and married her, with his heavily pregnant wife in attendance, and then gave all his attention to his new bride. A couple of weeks later, she died shortly after a difficult childbirth. The consensus of all, including the extremely TBM compiler of the journal entries, was that she died of a broken heart.

That story haunts me still.

Good, Lord. That poor woman. Shame on that man and girl.

- Doc