Secular folks should worry.

[Kishkumen]

Today the Florida legislature passed a six-week abortion ban, which Governor DeSantis will almost certainly sign to keep his presidential hopes thriving. This is the worst kind of theocratic nonsense imaginable, the result of extremist Christian capture of one of our two major parties. THIS is what both secular and religious folk should worry about. THIS is what turns people away from religion.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Today the Florida legislature passed a six-week abortion ban, which Governor DeSantis will almost certainly sign to keep his presidential hopes thriving. This is the worst kind of theocratic nonsense imaginable, the result of extremist Christian capture of one of our two major parties. THIS is what both secular and religious folk should worry about. THIS is what turns people away from religion.

Probably because they want this:



Hey, Mental, is this civil society?

- Doc

[Schreech]

Oh God, i hope not. Watching you, a member of a small and rapidly shrinking group of aging, believing Mormons, make a fool out of yourself for 65 pages really helps validate many of the thoughts I have had about members of your demographic who continue to cling to the folklore in an effort to rationalize the endless hours they devoted to a psuedo-religious cult...The fact that you and ajax, a couple of bigoted, judgy right-wing nutters and Mormon priesthood holders who are incapable of introspection or critical thought are the main representation of believing Mormons here is just fantastic. Please don't stop being the dishonest hypocrite you have been taught to be. Watching you accuse everyone of the things you have been doing for 65 pages is just gold.

The fact that you don't think society can function properly without devotion to some make believe sky being which includes adherence to a bunch of silly rules "revealed" by a group of dishonest, geriatric homophobic salary-men is completely expected from someone, like you, who has never really experienced anything outside the small conservative Mormon bubble you have created for your long, uneventful life devoted to Mormon mythology. The average age of attending Mormons will continue to rise as the org continues to offer nothing of value to younger generations beyond guilt and homophobia. What other religions have you experienced? what cultures have you lived among and explored? what countries have you spent time in where "judaeo christian values" are not the driving force in society? Obviously none, but maybe one day you will grow up and actually learn a thing or two about how the world works...maybe start with actually reading what people post here...

Hello my old friend Screech. You certainly make some fair points.Certainly humans have formed moral systems for a long time, some based on some sort of god belief and some not. There was a time where I probably thought without a God we would simply be amoral unethical beasts. That day has long passed for me and in fact I find a secular approach to morals and ethics likely will result in better morals and ethics than religion does. I am working through two books on this. First is The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris. He also has a series of podcasts that explores such topics that I like. The other is Enlightenment Now by Stephen Pynker.

MG's approach of without God we all fall prey to moral relativism is just nonsense and a bogy man term the religious people use as a scar tactic.

Jason! Great to see you and spot on. It’s been interesting watching my kids and their friends as they get older and become increasingly disinterested in religion. They have formed their own value systems and are far more caring and empathetic than they would ever learn via the Mormon guilt machine (you know - “woke” - lol). They regularly volunteer to sit with older, home-bound people heading toward hospice just to provide them some company and help. They have joined groups heading to poorer countries to build houses, dig wells, etc on a number of occasions and regularly donate (time and money from their part time jobs) to causes they feel strongly about - equality is something that motivates them.

They just felt like they needed to give back, as teenagers, without pressure or guilt from any religion - somehow they have morals and values without adhering to some Judaeo-Christian pseudo-religious cult…shocking. Religious folks (are and) should be worried. The upcoming generation sees through the sham and are better people for it. It feels a bit like the MGs of the world are jealous more than anything - they want everyone’s lives to be as miserable as theirs have been.

[Nimrod]

Today the Florida legislature passed a six-week abortion ban, which Governor DeSantis will almost certainly sign to keep his presidential hopes thriving. This is the worst kind of theocratic nonsense imaginable, the result of extremist Christian capture of one of our two major parties. THIS is what both secular and religious folk should worry about. THIS is what turns people away from religion.

Probably because they want this:



Hey, Mental, is this civil society?

- Doc

Is Rep. Mike Moon a Mormon or of what other wacko, fundamental Christian stripe is he?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Is Rep. Mike Moon a Mormon or of what other wacko, fundamental Christian stripe is he?

Yes, he’s a Republican:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Moon_(politician)

And his church, the High Street Baptist church is part of the SBC. Notable:

https://www.columbiamissourian.com/news ... 54217.html

Sex Abuse Crisis Within the SBC and SBC Executive Committee Response

According to the Washington Post, a 300-page report was released on Sunday, May 22, 2022. The report contains horrifying new details regarding specific abuse instances and sheds light on how denominational officials actively opposed abuse prevention and reform for decades.

Southern Baptist Convention leaders have announced an extensive and independent third-party investigation that found that abusers were often ignored, forgotten, or even blamed by high-ranking church officials from within this religious denomination of larger than 16 million members. Additionally, it revealed these leaders often lied to their own members to prevent them from being aware of the rampant sexual misconduct.

It should be noted the SBC had their own secret 200+ page report they were keeping, and was involved in covering up sex abuse within the SBC. The report was leaked, and now we have a 300-page report (and growing).

This is Christendom in America, and Mike Moon is balls deep in this lunacy.

- Doc

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

This Mormon guy:



Is running for some GOP seat somewhere, I dunno. Here’s his campaign site:

https://www.brandonbeckham.com/about-3

To the point, he’s being charged for sex abuse stuff:

https://www.ksl.com/article/50423710/se ... cutors-say

https://ksltv.com/486267/utah-state-sen ... se-charge/

Hey, MG. Is this civil society? Should GenZ be worried about active Mormon GenX types sexually assaulting them?

- Doc

[Jason Bourne]

Now I have time to volunteer with Habitat for Humanity. I serve on the board of two local non pofits. I am part of a planning committee for a local cancer center that is doing it's first cycling fund raiser this year. And I donate to quite a number of good organizations that do much more than the LDS Church to relieve human suffering.

Kudos. Well done.

- Doc

Thank you!

[Jason Bourne]

Today the Florida legislature passed a six-week abortion ban, which Governor DeSantis will almost certainly sign to keep his presidential hopes thriving. This is the worst kind of theocratic nonsense imaginable, the result of extremist Christian capture of one of our two major parties. THIS is what both secular and religious folk should worry about. THIS is what turns people away from religion.

Indeed. And well said.

[Gadianton]

Would the world be a much happier place if we committed genocide against people with different religious views as Moses taught in Deuteronomy 20:16-18?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian ... ructionism

Christian reconstructionism is a fundamentalist Calvinist theonomic movement.[1] It developed primarily under the direction of Rousas Rushdoony, Greg Bahnsen and Gary North[2] and has had an important influence on the Christian right in the United States.[3][4] Its central theme is that society should be reconstructed under the lordship of Christ in all aspects of life.[5] In keeping with the biblical cultural mandate, reconstructionists advocate for theonomy and the restoration of certain biblical laws said to have continued applicability.[6] These include the death penalty not only for murder, but also for idolatry,[7] open homosexuality,[8] adultery, witchcraft and blasphemy.[9]

This may not be what MG advocates for, but he is okay with others advocating for it, and they are a part of the same right-wing Christian voting block. He'll shrug at this, but flip out over pronouns.

So there isn't much credibility to the idea of Christianity being a must to determine morals for the country. He passed it off in this thread like it's the secret sauce for folks getting along and being good to each other, while for many of his brother's and sisters, it's an extreme police state with them in charge. What this means, in statistical terms, is that there is too much variability in what Judeo-Christianity fundamentally means to those who identify as Christians, and to those who self-identifiers accept within their circle as allies, to have any meaningful interpretation as a standard.

Ah, to be a cultist.

[Analytics]

Would the world be a much happier place if we committed genocide against people with different religious views as Moses taught in Deuteronomy 20:16-18?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian ... ructionism

Christian reconstructionism is a fundamentalist Calvinist theonomic movement.[1] It developed primarily under the direction of Rousas Rushdoony, Greg Bahnsen and Gary North[2] and has had an important influence on the Christian right in the United States.[3][4] Its central theme is that society should be reconstructed under the lordship of Christ in all aspects of life.[5] In keeping with the biblical cultural mandate, reconstructionists advocate for theonomy and the restoration of certain biblical laws said to have continued applicability.[6] These include the death penalty not only for murder, but also for idolatry,[7] open homosexuality,[8] adultery, witchcraft and blasphemy.[9]

This may not be what MG advocates for, but he is okay with others advocating for it, and they are a part of the same right-wing Christian voting block. He'll shrug at this, but flip out over pronouns.

So there isn't much credibility to the idea of Christianity being a must to determine morals for the country. He passed it off in this thread like it's the secret sauce for folks getting along and being good to each other, while for many of his brother's and sisters, it's an extreme police state with them in charge. What this means, in statistical terms, is that there is too much variability in what Judeo-Christianity fundamentally means to those who identify as Christians, and to those who self-identifiers accept within their circle as allies, to have any meaningful interpretation as a standard.

Ah, to be a cultist.

My impression is that MG believes in an objective moral system. God is the lawgiver and the enforcer of this morality. He believers that through the Light of Christ, all believers in God will converge upon this morality and driven by their selfish desire to please God and go to heaven after they're dead, they will be motivated to live according to this system of morality. Yes, believers in God won't agree on minor details such as faith, repentance, baptism, and priesthood authority, but at least they'll agree that the 10 Commandments are good, and that should be enough to form a well-running society.

Furthermore, he seems to believe, if somebody doesn't believe in God, there is neither a reason to believe in objective morality, nor is their any motivation to live a moral life. Play video games in your mom's basement all day, or take an assault riffle to school and have some fun, or do whatever else floats your boat. We're all dead in the end, so why does any of that matter?

Pinker responds to this worldview best. The bulk of his masterpiece Enlightenment Now! The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism and Progress shows in painstaking detail that according to almost every measure of societal wellbeing (e.g. life, health, sustenance, wealth, inequality, the environment, peace, safety, quality of life, knowledge, happiness), the world is better than it's ever been. Yes, there are problems, but things are better than ever and there are excellent reasons to be optimistic about the future. Furthermore, it shows that reason and science deserve the credit for things getting better, and that humanism, not religion, is the real source of objective values that everybody can and ought to agree to.

Here are a couple of quotes that respond directly to MG's arguments:

It’s not just that there is almost certainly no God to dictate and enforce moral precepts. It’s that even if there were a God, his divine decrees, as conveyed to us through religion, cannot be the source of morality. The explanation goes back to Plato’s Euthyphro, in which Socrates points out that if the gods have good reasons to deem certain acts moral, we can appeal to those reasons directly, skipping the middlemen. If they don’t, we should not take their dictates seriously. After all, thoughtful people can give reasons why they don’t kill, rape, or torture other than fear of eternal hellfire, and they would not suddenly become rapists and contract killers if they had reason to believe that God’s back was turned or if he told them it was OK . (page 428)

I apologize for over quoting Pinker, but he expresses these ideas better than I could:

If the positive contributions of religious institutions come from their role as humanistic associations in civil society, then we would expect those benefits not to be tied to theistic belief, and that is indeed the case. It’s long been known that churchgoers are happier and more charitable than stay-at-homes, but Robert Putnam and his fellow political scientist David Campbell have found that these blessings have nothing to do with beliefs in God, creation, heaven, or hell. An atheist who has been pulled into a congregation by an observant spouse is as charitable as the faithful among the flock, whereas a fervent believer who prays alone is not particularly charitable. At the same time, communality and civic virtue can be fostered by membership in secular service communities such as the Shriners (with their children’s hospitals and burn units), Rotary International (which is helping to end polio), and Lions Club (which combats blindness)—even, according to Putnam and Campbell’s research, a bowling league.

Just as religious institutions deserve praise when they pursue humanistic ends, they should not be shielded from criticism when they obstruct those ends. Examples include the withholding of medical care from sick children in faith-healing sects, the opposition to humane assisted dying, the corruption of science education in schools, the suppression of touchy biomedical research such as on stem cells, and obstruction of lifesaving public health policies such as contraception, condoms, and vaccination against HPV.
(page 432)