Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

[Rivendale]

I would like a bullet list on just exactly what it means to draw closer to Christ. Just exactly how does the Book of Mormon (a demonstrably fictional book) accomplish that?

Try using a little motivated reasoning, and voila, you are suddenly closer. I believe real hard, therefore it becomes my reality, regardless of how baseless.

Carl Sagan described the baloney detector. Is there such a thing as a testimony meter? Or a belief calibrator?

[huckelberry]

Where would you put yourself on these faith and pride scales?

You certainly have a relevant question there Morley,

But I wanted to remark how apt your current id painting is. That might be reason you might keep it a bit longer than usual. I am prejudiced however having a special fondness for Mr Beckman. Among his simpler paintings I have long been fond of that one.

[Morley]

Where would you put yourself on these faith and pride scales?

You certainly have a relevant question there Morley,

But I wanted to remark how apt your current id painting is. That might be reason you might keep it a bit longer than usual. I am prejudiced however having a special fondness for Mr Beckman. Among his simpler paintings I have long been fond of that one.

You're one of a kid, Huck. In all of the good ways.

[Dr Exiled]

Try using a little motivated reasoning, and voila, you are suddenly closer. I believe real hard, therefore it becomes my reality, regardless of how baseless.

Carl Sagan described the baloney detector. Is there such a thing as a testimony meter? Or a belief calibrator?

Yeah, I like Carl Sagan. His dragon in the garage analogy to religion is spot on. https://www.skeptical-science.com/criti ... arl-sagan/

[JohnW]

Hi John. I have a question about this part of your post on pride:

It may be that people who strongly feel like the church can't help them aren't all that open to the idea that the church can, in fact, help them.

Help them in what way? If, for whatever reason, a member comes to the conclusion that the LDS church is not what it purports to be (the restored Church of Jesus Christ), how do think the church can still help them?

Thanks in advance.

I mostly left it vague on purpose. The church can help people in multiple ways. For some, it helps them come to know God better. For others it gives them a sense of community. It can help people financially through difficult times. It can help families who want a good positive structure in which to raise their children. There are a list of others, but these seem to be the most cited. I don't think it is required that the church do all these things for everyone. It would have to depend on the personality and the need, I imagine.

There were people I talked to who were ready to leave the church for one reason without realizing they were dropping other aspects of the church as well. Some regretted it and returned, others found ways to fill those parts of their lives with other things.

[Res Ipsa]

Hi John. I have a question about this part of your post on pride:



Help them in what way? If, for whatever reason, a member comes to the conclusion that the LDS church is not what it purports to be (the restored Church of Jesus Christ), how do think the church can still help them?

Thanks in advance.

I mostly left it vague on purpose. The church can help people in multiple ways. For some, it helps them come to know God better. For others it gives them a sense of community. It can help people financially through difficult times. It can help families who want a good positive structure in which to raise their children. There are a list of others, but these seem to be the most cited. I don't think it is required that the church do all these things for everyone. It would have to depend on the personality and the need, I imagine.

There were people I talked to who were ready to leave the church for one reason without realizing they were dropping other aspects of the church as well. Some regretted it and returned, others found ways to fill those parts of their lives with other things.

Understood. Thanks!

[JohnW]

Ha ha. Sorry, I meant to mention the other one. Pride is the other common underlying issue I observed with people who left the church. Another way to describe it could be certainty in their convictions or that they felt they didn't need the church. It may just be that by the time they got to talking with me, they were already set in what they wanted to do. It may be that people who strongly feel like the church can't help them aren't all that open to the idea that the church can, in fact, help them. Either way, by the time I would talk to people they were not very open minded. I don't really blame them, I think I was the same way, to a degree, when I was struggling with my testimony a couple decades ago. I thought I knew so much--way more than was commonly discussed in church. In my case, graduate-level physics crushed my ego pretty effectively. Math wasn't always my strong suit, and graduate-level physics is when you go through all the same topics again but in all the gory mathematical detail.

The hardest task in the world has to be changing the mind of someone who doesn't think their mind needs changing. Usually all I could do was commiserate with them and wish them well on their spiritual journey. For completeness, pride was the most common problem in the active members of the church as well. There are so many people out there that are entirely certain about almost everything. Without sidetracking the thread, I see this as the major (potentially fatal) problem with LDS apologetics.

Where would you put yourself on these faith and pride scales?

I would say I tend to struggle with pride as much as the next human. I would also say that I am still learning about what faith means to me. I certainly wouldn't say I have it all figured out, if that is what you are asking.

[Morley]

Where would you put yourself on these faith and pride scales?

I would say I tend to struggle with pride as much as the next human. I would also say that I am still learning about what faith means to me. I certainly wouldn't say I have it all figured out, if that is what you are asking.

Obviously, you don't tend to struggle with pride as much as the next human who either leaves the church or engages in apologetics.

You say that the reason people leave the Church is either insufficient faith or surplus pride. I'm asking how your own faith and pride are either qualitatively or quantitatively different from those you've observed leaving. You seem to have some pretty developed theories about this. I'd like to read more.

[¥akaSteelhead]

Pride and a lack of faith are the reasons we leave church?


Seems pretty typical straw manning designed to not understand the reason people actually leave the church.

[malkie]

Pride and a lack of faith are the reasons we leave church?


Seems pretty typical straw manning designed to not understand the reason people actually leave the church.

It should allow those who stay to feel superior.