Excellent points. I simply rejected the word in certain endeavors, but I appreciate that you left it in and took it to its logical and unfortunately, all too often deadly conclusion.Gadianton wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 2:00 amBut as I said, "going on a journey" and turning to God, and facing a deadly sickness and turning to God, are very different things. Sure, there are some superficial similarities, as in, the adventurer may raise their chances slightly by having a positive attitude and following doctor instructions if sick. But in the case of climbing a mountain, the likelihood of succeeding is directly related to the climbers skill. In the case of a deadly sickness, the afflicted is mostly powerless. Faith in the case of sickness is in fact, belief that God will intervene and do what mankind cannot, as opposed to pushing oneself to the limit in a high-stretch goal, which is what faith is when climbing a mountain.JohnW wrote:Secular translation: When someone prepared to go on a journey, they have hope and faith that they will be successful. They also must be prepared for the fact that they may not be successful. Will their mental health support either outcome? If not, then they may not be prepared to start that journey. I think that is a good chunk of what is meant when people talk about faith to not be healed.
It's a very important concept as you say in religion: the faith not to be healed is the faith to remain loyal when your God, your religion, or what is otherwise the logical object of your faith fails you. Take the idea to absurdity: you get baptized to gain salvation. Suppose your baptism can't save you, should you have the faith not to be saved? Most people aren't victims of their belief, meaning, they incorporate advice like yours to avoid getting their hopes up in the first place -- they avoid having faith in anything that can be falsified. "The faith not to be healed" is really telling people "don't have faith in the first place," as for this variety of faith, and you now subtly shift the context, and create a new kind of faith that is, as I've said, faith = loyalty to a person or institution.
I've just stumbled upon the epic illustration of what I'm talking about. It turns out I have access to HBO Max; all this cable I pay for that everyone else uses, it never occurred to me that I have access through the app. Was setting up a new TV today, took a leap of faith, and boom. So now I'm watching Heaven's Gate: The Cult of Cults, and boy, is there a lesson for you, John. (caution: spoiler)
NRMs draw people who want to have faith in miracles. Many people want magical gold plates and angels and flying saucers, all those fascinating things that mature religions don't dare offer them. The object lesson of faith for a mature religion is usually about loyalty to the leaders. For most churches, "faith not to be healed" means don't get your hopes up -- don't really have faith in the miracles religions are founded on, at least not anything that can be falsified, just be loyal.
As you may know, Heavens Gate was led by a man and woman, Do, and Ti. It drew in people who wanted something greater than this dreary world just like Mormonism did in early times. They taught that they would improve themselves here on earth and eventually, they would reach a level where a UFO would pick them up and take them away. In the early days, followers would move from camp site to camp site watching the sky for UFOs. The movement is built upon faith in miracles. But Ti gets cancer and dies. So tell me John, did Ti have the faith not to be healed? Absolutely, and so did Do -- he had the faith not to let the death of Ti, a greater prophet than even he, thwart their efforts to gain salvation. They had to re-frame the belief system where Ti becomes the paradigm. Before, sickness, physical clumsiness, things like that are blockers to salvation, because these people are really going to be getting on a real spacecraft and there is a physical health requirement to do that. But Ti dies? Can't be saved. I'm sure you've guessed it, the doctrine is spiritualized, and Ti left this world to join the spaceship when she died, and so now -- the group will eventually prepare themselves and join her.
And so when talking about a new religious movement that actively pursues religious ideas, "faith not to be healed" literally results in mass suicide, when the expectations simply can't be achieved and faith shifts from belief in miracles to dogged loyalty to leaders.
(On a side note, Re the setting up of online access for others, I had an eerily similar experience recently. Consequently, I found out I can now privately watch Top Chef on my tablet, while the hockey enthusiasts do their thing on the big screen. : D )