In which Jim Bennet and Jacob Hansen discuss their Differences on Mormon Book Reviews

[Rivendale]

Jacob Hansen is seeking to defend the Mormon Brethren's hatred of the LGBTQ community. Jim Bennett dares not speak against the hatred of the Brethren for fear of losing his membership but finds it difficult to support Hansen's position due to Bennett being a decent human being and Christian.

As much as Jim seems to represent himself as open minded and progressive isn't it funny how scared to death he is of full grown adult leaders?

[Failed Prophecy]

I watched the "debate." Jim Bennett needs to always turn his camera off because he looks like a spoiled child when discussing. Having said that, they both have completely untenable positions. So, it's no surprise when people who have untenable positions, that are also different, can't have a discussion.

The real kicker for me is that BOTH of them are 100% the product of the LDS hierarchy. It's just that the hierarchy gives completely mixed signals. They each choose which signals they prefer and can't understand why they other one can't see their side. They both claim that they are supporting and understanding the brethren, and they both are right.

My prediction is that Jacob will be proven correct in the short to medium term and Jim will be proven correct in the medium to long term. So I guess in addition to both listening to and supporting the brethren they are both correct. The only real questions are: 1) Will Jim Bennett stay in the church long enough for his position to win and 2) Will Jacob Hansen leave when the church has changed too much? I wouldn't bet on either proposition.

[Moksha]

As much as Jim seems to represent himself as open minded and progressive isn't it funny how scared to death he is of full grown adult leaders?

It is like Jim knows (probably based on many case studies) that he will be excommunicated if he openly repudiates the Brethren's position on the LQBTQ issue, as well as corrects demonstrably false histories. Silence buys his safety.

[Rivendale]

As much as Jim seems to represent himself as open minded and progressive isn't it funny how scared to death he is of full grown adult leaders?

It is like Jim knows (probably based on many case studies) that he will be excommunicated if he openly repudiates the Brethren's position on the LQBTQ issue, as well as corrects demonstrably false histories. Silence buys his safety.

As RFM has said....Mormonism is like never graduating from 6th grade.

[Kishkumen]

It is more the case that true maturity lies in the realization that human society never really progresses beyond pre-adolescence. The only question after that is how one chooses to deal with that reality.

[Bill_Billiams]

Hansen is an interesting figure. He seems to represent modern LDS orthodoxy but his ideas about the church are a pretty blatant rejection of older LDS orthodoxy.

Bill, blatant rejection? I do not understand what you are thinking of. He sounded like he fit orthodoxy, at least that I am familiar with.

Perhaps you are thinking he made too large an allowance for possible church errors. I found myself realizing my sense of older orthodoxy would be David O McKay era. I have heard there was a shift to more rigid authority claims after his time.

I was under the impression that old LDS orthodoxy taught that they had infallible scripture and that they definitely were not Christians. Hansen seems to reject the idea of any infallible revelation and he also seems to hold to the idea that LDS are Christians too.

[huckelberry]

Bill, blatant rejection? I do not understand what you are thinking of. He sounded like he fit orthodoxy, at least that I am familiar with.

Perhaps you are thinking he made too large an allowance for possible church errors. I found myself realizing my sense of older orthodoxy would be David O McKay era. I have heard there was a shift to more rigid authority claims after his time.

I was under the impression that old LDS orthodoxy taught that they had infallible scripture and that they definitely were not Christians. Hansen seems to reject the idea of any infallible revelation and he also seems to hold to the idea that LDS are Christians too.

Bill, I must take a step back and figure you are speaking from your real experience which is different than mine. There are different interpretation of orthodox Mormonism and those might vary from time to time and place to place. I am not going to argue that you are wrong in what you picture.

But to express myself, I am shocked. I cannot imagine any Mormonism declining to be labeled Christian. To all my understanding being Christian is the necessary first building block for Mormonism. If one was not Christian then one could not be Mormon.

The infallible question is a little trickier. All my experience with the question falls within the views of these two disputants. I have never experienced a stricter fundamentalist type Mormonism. There is sort of a dance approaching sure revelation and the realization that all human understanding is limited and thus within the sphere of possible misunderstandings. Both Jacob and Jim recognized it though each treated it a bit differently.

[Dr Moore]

My view both Hansen and Bennet are defending untenable positions. Hansen says Deznat is a bridge too far, but he says textbook Deznat things when he gets worked up. Bennet argues that church leaders are prophets, but also not. He belongs to a church that does not exist.

[jfro18]

Two things stuck out to me:

1. Jacob said at least twice that there was no scriptural basis for the priesthood ban as a way to say that the church's stance on marriage can't change, but he's wrong and he knows it (I know he knows it because I've sent him this before). The Book of Abraham explicitly gives the justification for the ban:

1:24 When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.

1:27 Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry;

So right there Jacob's entire argument falls apart.

2. Jacob likes to 'disavow' deznat but if you look at what he does online he's playing footsie with them the entire time and swimming in the same waters with the same people the entire time.

It was a hard listen - I am certainly on team Jim here, but the church he describes doesn't exist either.

[Bill_Billiams]

I was under the impression that old LDS orthodoxy taught that they had infallible scripture and that they definitely were not Christians. Hansen seems to reject the idea of any infallible revelation and he also seems to hold to the idea that LDS are Christians too.

Bill, I must take a step back and figure you are speaking from your real experience which is different than mine. There are different interpretation of orthodox Mormonism and those might vary from time to time and place to place. I am not going to argue that you are wrong in what you picture.

But to express myself, I am shocked. I cannot imagine any Mormonism declining to be labeled Christian. To all my understanding being Christian is the necessary first building block for Mormonism. If one was not Christian then one could not be Mormon.

The infallible question is a little trickier. All my experience with the question falls within the views of these two disputants. I have never experienced a stricter fundamentalist type Mormonism. There is sort of a dance approaching sure revelation and the realization that all human understanding is limited and thus within the sphere of possible misunderstandings. Both Jacob and Jim recognized it though each treated it a bit differently.

I watched an evolution among the Mormons I grew up around. When I was a kid they absolutely denied that they were Christians and they asserted that the Book of Mormon was completely true and reliable.

Then they were the only real Christians and the Book of Mormom was still true but maybe it had some issues.

Now they are Christians just like other Christians but they have the extra good parts that were resorted and some of those can be found in the Book of Mormon but it has some problems so just pray and focus on the burning in your chest.

That's been the three step transformation in my area at least.