Three Questions (Split from, ‘Vogel Responds …’)

[MG 2.0]

No specific response to this as yet. Just more obfuscating.

That “obfuscation” you accuse me of is actually a clear answer. Whether you have eyes to see and ears to hear is another matter. I have laid out what I believe the role of a prophet to be in the modern era. I would suggest you go back and read my rather long winded posts a second or third time. Read for meaning. Read for comprehension.

Indeed, and thank you. I think everyone read your treatise on what you consider to be the role of a prophet. It didn't mention anything about revelation, however--though you had specifically listed revelation by modern prophets as one of the core truth claims of the LDS Church.

It should be pointed out, however, that the truth claims of the CofJCofLDS remain the same today as they did at the point of origin in the modern era.

1. God lives.
2. Jesus is the Christ and our Savior and Redeemer.
3. Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost are necessary for salvation and exaltation.
4. We will be judged by our faith and works as we accept the grace given by Christ through His Atonement.
5. Ordinances are a necessary part of God’s plan. They are ‘entry points’ along the path that leads towards salvation/exaltation.
6. Prophets receive revelation for our day from the Lord.
7. We are accountable for our own sins.
8. Life is eternal and all mankind, with some exceptions, will be resurrected.

(My bold.)

My question was concerning item number 6. I requested evidence that LDS prophets are disseminating revelation in these modern times.

What revelations in the last 100 years have the prophets of the CoJCoLDS received, that could not have also been determined by my general contractor brother? It should be pretty easy for you to make a list of these.

Thank you for your civil response, Morley. I appreciate it. Here’s the thing. I think it’s rather hard to pinpoint the ‘one big thing’ or the two or three big things that have been revealed in the last 100 years. Most, if not all, of the primary ‘restoration’ revelation was introduced/given during the first years of the restoration. The scriptures, especially the Doctrine and Covenants contain those revelations.

Priesthood, covenants, etc.

Prophets since the beginning years of the restoration have, as I said, carried the restored keys of the Priesthood from generation to generation. They have fine tuned or tweaked the revelations that came at the earlier point of origin.

Why did I mention hindsight as being the key to seeing revelation? Again, because we can then see how the hand of the Lord led us along to where we (the church) are at today. This is what I went into somewhat detail/depth on earlier, so I won’t here.

So, I appreciate your question. Earlier I used the word ‘fantastical’. Folks can go back and look at the context if they want. My concern is that if we are looking for ‘signs and miracles’ that are fantastical we may find ourselves, on the whole, disappointed. In my opinion the lion’s share of fantastical revelation has previously been given through ancient prophets and also the prophets at the beginning of this dispensation.

At this point we see line upon line, precept upon precept. Here a little, there a little.

I referred to expectations earlier. I invite others to go back and again read what I’ve written in detail. I wasn’t ‘whistling Dixie’.

Your general contractor brother would be hard pressed to exchange places with President Nelson and exercise the keys for church administration and governance that he has been entrusted with.

And again, as a reminder, I have gone into significant detail earlier as to where and what place a prophet fulfills his mandate/calling.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

Your general contractor brother would be hard pressed to exchange places with President Nelson and exercise the keys for church administration and governance that he has been entrusted with.

These keys, to be clear, aren’t a real physical thing. They’re an invisible authority that the brethren claim to have.

Best compared to an imaginary friend. You can believe in it if you wish, but you have no way of proving to an objective outside observer that it is real.

[MG 2.0]

Your general contractor brother would be hard pressed to exchange places with President Nelson and exercise the keys for church administration and governance that he has been entrusted with.

These keys, to be clear, aren’t a real physical thing. They’re an invisible authority that the brethren claim to have.

That is true. We can only observe to determine whether or not the ‘fruit’ and/or results of those things which transpire over a period of time seem to give evidence that the exercise and righteous use of ‘keys’ actually result in overall positive outcomes as the church moves along on its mission.

That, of course, is an individual determination based on thought, logic, testimony, and prayer.

…you have no way of proving to an objective outside observer that it is real.

This is true. All one can do is invite others to ‘come and see’.

Off to get ready for church and family the remainder of the afternoon.

Thanks for the conversation everyone!

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

MG, when I say "evidently not," to your claim of modern-day revelation, I'm asking for the evidence that what you say is true.

I'll make it easy for you. What revelations in the last 100 years have the prophets of the CoJCoLDS made that could not have been made by my mother-in-law?

No specific response to this as yet. Just more obfuscating.

And again.

[I Have Questions]

1. God lives.
2. Jesus is the Christ and our Savior and Redeemer.
3. Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost are necessary for salvation and exaltation.
4. We will be judged by our faith and works as we accept the grace given by Christ through His Atonement.
5. Ordinances are a necessary part of God’s plan. They are ‘entry points’ along the path that leads towards salvation/exaltation.
6. Prophets receive revelation for our day from the Lord.
7. We are accountable for our own sins.
8. Life is eternal and all mankind, with some exceptions, will be resurrected.

You’re wrong on some of these.

Salvation (according to the Church) is granted to everyone regardless of ordinances. It’s what Jesus died for.

All people will be resurrected (according to LDS teachings) without exception.

Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost are NOT necessary for salvation.

Temple Marriage is a requirement for exaltation, in addition to what you listed.

Weren’t you paying attention during Sunday School?

No response to me pointing out some very basic errors in your claims about what the Church teaches MG?

[MG 2.0]

1. God lives.
2. Jesus is the Christ and our Savior and Redeemer.
3. Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost are necessary for salvation and exaltation.
4. We will be judged by our faith and works as we accept the grace given by Christ through His Atonement.
5. Ordinances are a necessary part of God’s plan. They are ‘entry points’ along the path that leads towards salvation/exaltation.
6. Prophets receive revelation for our day from the Lord.
7. We are accountable for our own sins.
8. Life is eternal and all mankind, with some exceptions, will be resurrected.

You’re wrong on some of these.

I don’t think I am. I stand by each of these as they are written. If you would like to start another thread and thoroughly go through each to show that they are not core doctrines feel free to do so.

Weren’t you paying attention during Sunday School?

Today? Yes. Lesson on Romans in the New Testament. Can’t guarantee that I’ve always paid as close attention as you apparently claim to have done back in your days as an active member of the church. Although in this instance and from your response I would question whether or not you dozed off and on.

Here is the original post, in context, as I was talking with drumdude back on page 5.

The problem is there’s a lot more than that list.

1) Believe Jews sailed to the Americas in 600BC
2) Pay tithing to the LDS corporation so it can be used to build shopping malls that sell alcohol
3) Don’t practice oral sex during the 70s when the church taught it was a sin
4) Miss out on temple blessings before 1978 if you are black
5) Don’t get baptized if you are the child of a gay parent between the years 2015 and 2018

On and on and on. If the church ever was restored, it is a j need of another restoration. In my opinion.

Another restoration would only result in the list of core beliefs that I listed. There wouldn’t be any difference.

So the question is whether or not a list such as yours should supersede and/or cancel out the core beliefs. The problem, as I see it, is that when individuals become consumed with those things that are peripheral to the core teachings and practices of the church they then walk out the door.

And that’s unfortunate, in my opinion.

Care to answer to that rather than going all nit picky on core doctrines? I think you can see the point I was making.

Were you…or are you…more concerned more with peripherals than with the core doctrines and teachings?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

No specific response to this as yet. Just more obfuscating.

And again.

Cheap talk.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

You’re wrong on some of these.

Salvation (according to the Church) is granted to everyone regardless of ordinances. It’s what Jesus died for.

All people will be resurrected (according to LDS teachings) without exception.

Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost are NOT necessary for salvation.

Temple Marriage is a requirement for exaltation, in addition to what you listed.

Weren’t you paying attention during Sunday School?

No response to me pointing out some very basic errors in your claims about what the Church teaches MG?

One thing I have been finding lately is that very few Mormons online today seem to have a consistent understanding of their own doctrine. There seems to be a general strategy of downplaying differences, which inevitably results in errors in representation of Mormon belief. Maybe it is a very eclectic church now, with members believing whatever they want, as long as the underlying, most basic single requirement is met: Paying tithing to maintain their eligibility to enter their temple.

A far cry from the religious slogan of my youth, 'we are proud to be a peculiar people...'

[Morley]

Indeed, and thank you. I think everyone read your treatise on what you consider to be the role of a prophet. It didn't mention anything about revelation, however--though you had specifically listed revelation by modern prophets as one of the core truth claims of the LDS Church.

My question was concerning item number 6. I requested evidence that LDS prophets are disseminating revelation in these modern times.

What revelations in the last 100 years have the prophets of the CoJCoLDS received, that could not have also been determined by my general contractor brother? It should be pretty easy for you to make a list of these.

Thank you for your civil response, Morley. I appreciate it. Here’s the thing. I think it’s rather hard to pinpoint the ‘one big thing’ or the two or three big things that have been revealed in the last 100 years. Most, if not all, of the primary ‘restoration’ revelation was introduced/given during the first years of the restoration. The scriptures, especially the Doctrine and Covenants contain those revelations.

Priesthood, covenants, etc.

Prophets since the beginning years of the restoration have, as I said, carried the restored keys of the Priesthood from generation to generation. They have fine tuned or tweaked the revelations that came at the earlier point of origin.

Why did I mention hindsight as being the key to seeing revelation? Again, because we can then see how the hand of the Lord led us along to where we (the church) are at today. This is what I went into somewhat detail/depth on earlier, so I won’t here.

So, I appreciate your question. Earlier I used the word ‘fantastical’. Folks can go back and look at the context if they want. My concern is that if we are looking for ‘signs and miracles’ that are fantastical we may find ourselves, on the whole, disappointed. In my opinion the lion’s share of fantastical revelation has previously been given through ancient prophets and also the prophets at the beginning of this dispensation.

At this point we see line upon line, precept upon precept. Here a little, there a little.

I referred to expectations earlier. I invite others to go back and again read what I’ve written in detail. I wasn’t ‘whistling Dixie’.

Your general contractor brother would be hard pressed to exchange places with President Nelson and exercise the keys for church administration and governance that he has been entrusted with.

And again, as a reminder, I have gone into significant detail earlier as to where and what place a prophet fulfills his mandate/calling.

Hope this helps.

Thank you, MG. From what you both say and don't say above, it's apparent that my brother, uncle, and mother-in-law are all as competent at channeling modern revelation as any LDS prophet in the last 100 years. I wonder if your other cornerstones of truth regarding the Restoration are as reliable as this one has turned out to be.

You're absolutely correct in noting that you went into significant detail/depth in your earlier posts. I, too, hope others read what you both have said and have avoided saying in those expositions. Your own line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little, fantastical hindsight explanations should indeed be examined closely. Perhaps you will want to link to the most salient portions of these, for the viewers at home.

[MG 2.0]

No response to me pointing out some very basic errors in your claims about what the Church teaches MG?

One thing I have been finding lately is that very few Mormons online today seem to have a consistent understanding of their own doctrine. There seems to be a general strategy of downplaying differences, which inevitably results in errors in representation of Mormon belief. Maybe it is a very eclectic church now, with members believing whatever they want, as long as the underlying, most basic single requirement is met: Paying tithing to maintain their eligibility to enter their temple.

A far cry from the religious slogan of my youth, 'we are proud to be a peculiar people...'

Along with IHAQ I would challenge you to take a ‘critic’s view’ of the core doctrines list that I’ve posted. To be honest, I rattled this off the top of my head as I wrote/answered the earlier post where I originally made the list. There could be more in the list I suppose…but this was good enough for the point I was attempting to make with drumdude.

I’d be interested in your thoughts in regards to the point I was trying to make, Marcus. There’s a question embedded in there.

I think you might be mistaken in thinking that ‘online Mormons’ don’t seem to have a consistent understanding of our doctrine. I’m just a regular guy and there’s lots of regular guys out there that are members of the church that could rattle off a list very similar to mine without having to give it much thought.

Not quite sure why you would think otherwise.

I don’t think I was ‘downplaying differences’. Again, I would ask you to point out the so-called ‘errors’. I don’t think the church is as eclectic as you might think/hope. There are core doctrines. Without them we would cease to be Christ’s church. That ought to be common sense 101.

I didn’t even mention tithing as being a core doctrine. Although, yes, it is necessary at this time to obey this commandment to enter the temple. Critics seem to have a real fixation on tithing. drumdude expressed the fact that he would just as well not have to make that sacrifice along with keeping the Sabbath Day holy.

Anyway, I look forward to your response, along with IHAQ. It will be interesting to see if you both come up with the same answer.

Regards,
MG