If plates then God

[tagriffy]

I'm more than a little skeptical of this one. It's a late account, there is no documentation of where McIntosh got the information, apparently no corroboration in contemporary accounts, and it's more than a little more than too good to be true. We're supposed to believe that Hussy and Vanduzer have information that would literally blow the lid off Joseph's account, but Hurlbut somehow managed to miss them even though he was soliciting derogatory information on Joseph and the Book of Mormon?

A sober perspective, thank you.

What do you think of the witness accounts? Did any of the witnesses claim to see the plates in a natural circumstance? I mean, the plates were right there in the Smith House, right?

In the case of the Three and Eight Witnesses, I think it is more likely than not (in the case of the Three, far more likely than not) that their experiences were spiritual in nature. To my knowledge, no one has claimed to have seen the plates in natural circumstances. And yes, we have Emma's story of moving the plates around to do her housecleaning. So I'm inclined to believe Joseph had something, but have come to no firm conclusion what that was. Perhaps Vogel is right and Joseph fabricated the plates. Perhaps Joseph found something that he took to be the plates. Either way, perhaps something like Ann Taves' materialization thesis is going on. I'm not adverse to any of these explanations and in fact am rather drawn to Taves' theory.

[MG 2.0]

Here Smith consulted the volume upon which no other could look and live. William T. Hussy and Ashley Vanduzer, intimates of Smith, resolved to see the book, and were permitted to observe its shape and size under a piece of canvas. Smith refused to uncover it, and Hussey, seizing it, stripped off the cover, and found—a tile-brick.

Well, there you go! The plates were a brick. Problem solved.

Regards,
MG

[Moksha]

Well, there you go! The plates were a brick. Problem solved.

Regards,
MG

But then we must inquire as to whether it was the world's truest brick. Perhaps a brick of immense power. A brick that could be mastered only by a Yaqui sorcerer of the Sonoran Desert or Joseph Smith of Palmyra, New York.

Choose wisely Grasshopper, for only then can you be a Shaolin priest of the Melchezidek Temple. Benihana!

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I'm more than a little skeptical of this one. It's a late account, there is no documentation of where McIntosh got the information, apparently no corroboration in contemporary accounts, and it's more than a little more than too good to be true. We're supposed to believe that Hussy and Vanduzer have information that would literally blow the lid off Joseph's account, but Hurlbut somehow managed to miss them even though he was soliciting derogatory information on Joseph and the Book of Mormon?

Look, brother. It's evidence! It's been said! It's been recorded! That means, using mopologist reasoning, it's true!

= Doc

[Gadianton]

In the case of the Three and Eight Witnesses, I think it is more likely than not (in the case of the Three, far more likely than not) that their experiences were spiritual in nature. To my knowledge, no one has claimed to have seen the plates in natural circumstances. And yes, we have Emma's story of moving the plates around to do her housecleaning. So I'm inclined to believe Joseph had something, but have come to no firm conclusion what that was. Perhaps Vogel is right and Joseph fabricated the plates. Perhaps Joseph found something that he took to be the plates. Either way, perhaps something like Ann Taves' materialization thesis is going on. I'm not adverse to any of these explanations and in fact am rather drawn to Taves' theory.

Did Emma claim to move the bare plates or were the covered somehow?

I'm struggling to remember the material I posted about several years ago and of course, I can't find the post. I'd encountered a paper I believe that dealt with the location of the plates throughout the restoration process. Sometimes they were there in the house, sometimes given back to the angel, and so on. But there were times the plates were supposedly there with Joseph, and I disagree with Bushman when said Joseph acted like he had plates. Acting like he had plates, in my view, would be showing them straightforwardly to the handful of people that you trust.

Anne's theory opens up all kinds of options. It could very well be that he had a tile brick and the tile brick was sanctified and "transformed" when it needed to for those with the eyes to see.

[tagriffy]

Did Emma claim to move the bare plates or were the covered somehow?

I'm struggling to remember the material I posted about several years ago and of course, I can't find the post. I'd encountered a paper I believe that dealt with the location of the plates throughout the restoration process. Sometimes they were there in the house, sometimes given back to the angel, and so on. But there were times the plates were supposedly there with Joseph, and I disagree with Bushman when said Joseph acted like he had plates. Acting like he had plates, in my view, would be showing them straightforwardly to the handful of people that you trust.

Anne's theory opens up all kinds of options. It could very well be that he had a tile brick and the tile brick was sanctified and "transformed" when it needed to for those with the eyes to see.

According to Emma, the plates were always covered.

I would be interested in seeing the paper if you find it again.

That is a reason why I'm drawn to Taves' theory. In her scenario, the object could have been anything and it doesn't even matter how Joseph obtained it.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Or. Wait for it.

The whole family was in on it.

Beats farm work.

- Doc

[malkie]

Sorry, I haven't read every post in this topic, so my question may already have been answered.

Could someone use LIDAR, or some other technique, to find the cave/room with all of the plates, gold, jewels, sword of Laban etc., in or near Cumorah - presumably the one in New York, not meso-America?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Sorry, I haven't read every post in this topic, so my question may already have been answered.

Could someone use LIDAR, or some other technique, to find the cave/room with all of the plates, gold, jewels, sword of Laban etc., in or near Cumorah - presumably the one in New York, not meso-America?

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... netrating/

Also, something like 35’ish counties in new york have been lidar’d, including Ontario county where the Hill Cumorah sits.

- Doc

[Rivendale]

The plural of anecdote is not evidence. I find it amusing how apologists continues to point at testimony as evidence.