If plates then God

[MG 2.0]

So you’re saying she was part of a long con from the get go? Does all the evidence seem to support that?

Regards,
MG

. Yet we actually have a letter written in Joseph's hand around that time that is perfectly coherent.

Would you be willing to post a PDF of that letter for us to see?

Thanks.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...I’ll repeat my last sentence in the post you’re referring to.

“If the plates were real that opens up some possibilities that some folks would rather not entertain.”

As it stands, that sentence is true.

Lol. Only in your mind.

And I’m also saying that this…obviously…is why you and others go to great lengths to disregard and/or diss the testimony of Emma and others, including women, who testified that the plates were real.

You CAN’T have real plates.

NO MATTER WHAT.

Real plates would change your whole worldview.

Right?

If plates, then God. And the God of Mormonism no less....

Well that was completely desperate. What's the reason for your panic?

[MG 2.0]

There is the possibility they were telling the truth.

Regards,
MG

Sure there is, but that misses the point. Remember, huckleberry is pointing out the the evidence we have points to the Book of Mormon being fictional, in turn calling into question what the plates were, then contrasting it with Emma's story. So if we grant that they were telling the truth--at least as they knew it--then something else is going on. So the question of what to make of it still stands.

The plates supersede anything that comes thereafter. As I’ve been saying, they are primary. They are key. If the plates were real we can then look at various theories in regards to Book of Mormon geography, nineteenth century anachronisms, and all that.

The plates come first.

It’s Interesting that one of the first things the Lord did, was to tell Joseph Smith to have witnesses to the plates. I wonder if Joseph would have even considered or thought about that on his own.

Regards,
MG

[tagriffy]

I’ll repeat my last sentence in the post you’re referring to.

“If the plates were real that opens up some possibilities that some folks would rather not entertain.”

As it stands, that sentence is true.

And I’m also saying that this…obviously…is why you and others go to great lengths to disregard and/or diss the testimony of Emma and others, including women, who testified that the plates were real.

You CAN’T have real plates.

NO MATTER WHAT.

Real plates would change your whole worldview.

Right?

If plates, then God. And the God of Mormonism no less.

Regards,
MG

Again, there is a simple solution to that--produce the plates.

[tagriffy]

Earlier in the thread, as I’ve said, I have already discussed this. Existing plates would create a number of conundrums that would directly impact the Plan of Salvation and the doctrine of separation from God and living by faith.

Regards,
MG

Yeah. And I notice you didn't answer my response to that.

[Marcus]

...It’s Interesting that one of the first things the Lord did, was to tell Joseph Smith to have witnesses to the plates. I wonder if Joseph would have even considered or thought about that on his own...

So, god told Smith to set up and use "witnesses" in the same way that magicians and con artists set up and use "witnesses"?

[MG 2.0]

On the one hand there is the large disparity between the Book of Mormon history and the historical information we have about the New World. There is the dense 19th century American quality of the book. These significantly suggest the book is a fictional creation. If so the plates are a theatrical creation.

I don’t think one thing needs to discount the other. Blake Ostler and others have written extensively about the Book of Mormon being a composite of ancient writings and Joseph’s language and experience.

But the plates come/came first.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

MG is oversimplifying human nature to the point of absurdity. It's black and white thinking. We really have no hope of knowing what Emma was thinking at the time. We have trouble assessing the motives and thinking of people who are alive and that we know fairly well.

I know.

I am saying that we ought not to disregard and pass by what her actual words say. We should be open to giving her the benefit of a doubt until we have reason not to. Both Joseph and Emma’s ‘sincerity’ factor should be taken into account. And the sacrifices that they went through over many years.

A lot of ‘stuff’ to support a lie.

They were sincere believers in the restoration and never denied their testimonies.

All I’m saying is that one should not have a closed mind to accepting the facts as they were understood by witnesses at the time.

And they believed the plates were real.

Regards,
MG

[tagriffy]

. Yet we actually have a letter written in Joseph's hand around that time that is perfectly coherent.

Would you be willing to post a PDF of that letter for us to see?

Thanks.

Regards,
MG

I'm not sure I can do it properly. Here is a direct link that has a photo of the original along with a transcript:

Joseph Smith to Oliver Cowdery 22 Oct 1829

[MG 2.0]

...I’ll repeat my last sentence in the post you’re referring to.

“If the plates were real that opens up some possibilities that some folks would rather not entertain.”

As it stands, that sentence is true.

Lol. Only in your mind.

And I’m also saying that this…obviously…is why you and others go to great lengths to disregard and/or diss the testimony of Emma and others, including women, who testified that the plates were real.

You CAN’T have real plates.

NO MATTER WHAT.

Real plates would change your whole worldview.

Right?

If plates, then God. And the God of Mormonism no less....

Well that was completely desperate. What's the reason for your panic?

Please stop trolling.

Regards,
MG