If plates then God

[Marcus]

...I think we will continue to talk past each other Res Ipsa. I was teasing you a bit somewhere in the last few posts in regards to ad hominem. I think you may have taken me too seriously. Truthfully, my interactions with you and others have demonstrated, at least to me, the fragility of confidence manifest by those that leave the church. They are always wondering if they may have ‘blown it’ and are constantly on the defensive. I’ve seen that in you on this thread.

I’m calling like I see it. Of course someone will come back and say I’m simply projecting. I think that trope has been used a few times already...

Wow. A cornered rat bites. There's no 'ad hominem by innuendo' in that, just a panicked lashing out.

And yes, I will say this comment, unconnected to any of the actual discussion, is pure projection:

...my interactions with you and others have demonstrated, at least to me, the fragility of confidence manifest by those that leave the church. They are always wondering if they may have ‘blown it’ and are constantly on the defensive. I’ve seen that in you...

That in no way can be generalized to all people who are former Mormon, nor can all participating in this thread be categorized as former Mormon. You have inadvertently described your private issues exceedingly well, however.

...I think it’s pretty simple. The story of the plates is either true or false. ...From my perspective the part of the restoration with the narrative of the plates…or an artifact…surviving the eons of time in order to act as a ‘witness’ to the witness makes sense....

You mean the 'artifact' you define as plates that an 'angel' removed from the planet and that no one actually saw and which weren't even used to 'translate' the completely unverifiable story?

[Marcus]

If the plates were available and were used/proven as evidence for the Book of Mormon being the work of God we would no longer have the kind of faith that matters.

I am curious why the rock, which is currently available to Mormon leadership and known to exist, (at least according to the provenance given) isn't also considered to be an artifact that proves the Book of Mormon is a 'work of god.'

It may be that Mormon leadership thought the rock would take the place of the plates and increase their credibility, especially given how badly the existence of the Book of Abraham papyri failed in that respect.

If so, it was yet another complete misfire.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

If the plates were available and were used/proven as evidence for the Book of Mormon being the work of God we would no longer have the kind of faith that matters.

I am curious why the rock, which is currently available to Mormon leadership and known to exist, (at least according to the provenance given) isn't also considered to be an artifact that proves the Book of Mormon is a 'work of god.'

It may be that Mormon leadership thought the rock would take the place of the plates and increase their credibility, especially given how badly the existence of the Book of Abraham papyri failed in that respect.

If so, it was yet another complete misfire.

That’s an excellent point. The iStone is the device, according to Joseph Smith, used to generate the Book of Mormon. Period. Full stop. God literally left the most miraculous device mankind has ever actually held in their hands on earth that wasn’t whisked away, and the Mopologists are blathering on and on about plates.

What is it with all this Golden Plates talk? Everybody got something to say about the Golden Plates. I mean, what the hell? I'm sick of it.

I'm tired of these people telling me that I have to believe in the Golden Plates. I'm tired of these people telling me that the Golden Plates are the only way to know the Church is true. I'm tired of these people telling me that I'm not a real O.G. Mormon if I don't believe the Golden Plates.

I mean, what the hell? I've read the story. I know the story of Smith usin’ the iStone. I know what he said. I know what he looked in that hat. And I know that he didn’t need no plates.

So why do I have to believe the Golden Plates? Why do I have to read a bunch of mopologetic BS I don't believe in? Why do I have to read about idiots who talkin’ about plates and not the iStone?

I'm tired of it. I'm sick of it. I'm just sick of it.

I'm Allen Iverson, and I'm talking about i. STONE. Not the plates. iStone.

We talking about Plates? Not the iStone. Plates.

We talking about plates? Not the iStone. Plates.

Not a damn iStone. Plates.

We talking about PLATES?!?

We talking about PLATES?!?

Not the iStone. Plates!

Smdh.

[MG 2.0]

I’m sure that by the rules of the logic that you are employing you are finding reasons to think that a god ought to give full disclosure and not leave us in the dark or looking through a glass darkly. But that would separate us from the platform of making true choices without the ‘handicap’ of having everything served to us on a silver platter.

The plates and the angel, by association, demonstrate/prove the fact that God exists and Jesus is the Christ. The controversies of the ages are nullified.

If the angel and plates get associated, it sounds to me like everything from there is served on a silver platter. God and Jesus proven to exist, and all controversies everywhere settled.

Faith is still a necessary component in order to accept the plates being real and delivered by an angel. The tension between knowledge and faith still exists even after one accepts that the plates were translated by the gift and power of God.

There is no silver platter. One has to work at and continuously strive to strengthen their faith, but it is based upon the bedrock of Jesus Christ, not the plates.

Regards,
MG

[Res Ipsa]

If the plates were available and were used/proven as evidence for the Book of Mormon being the work of God we would no longer have the kind of faith that matters.

I am curious why the rock, which is currently available to Mormon leadership and known to exist, (at least according to the provenance given) isn't also considered to be an artifact that proves the Book of Mormon is a 'work of god.'

It may be that Mormon leadership thought the rock would take the place of the plates and increase their credibility, especially given how badly the existence of the Book of Abraham papyri failed in that respect.

If so, it was yet another complete misfire.

An examination of Smith's plates would allow us to test Smith's claims. The rock is just a rock.

https://youtu.be/crJvnMooE-o?si=PAfhYURL_aQXhN01

[drumdude]

That’s why apologists fall back on textual analysis.

DCP claims the Book of Mormon and Abraham texts “feel ancient.”

[MG 2.0]

What you seem to be dancing around but unwilling to admit is that Christ’s suffering and sacrifice is not sufficient for the redemption of sins. Innocent children also must be beaten and raped for salvation to occur. Beating, rape, torture, and murder of children are all necessary parts of the plan that Jesus Christ himself presented at the council in heaven, and you voted for that plan. Because mortals cannot be free agents if God does not send innocent children to earth knowing that they will be beaten, tortured, raped and murdered. Because unless children are beaten, tortured raped, and murdered, it’s so easy not to sin that you call it being handed salvation on a silver platter.

Christ’s Atonement is Infinite and eternal. The sufferings of all of God’s children due to the wickedness of men will be compensated for and healed. One has to remember that this life is not all there is and that the sufferings and trials of this life are a small part of eternity. There will be a judgement. Those that are guilty of heinous crimes against humanity will also be compensated with appropriate consequences for their actions.

If you believe that this life is all there is, then yes, things appear…and are…a real mess when it comes to the atrocities committed by free agents upon the innocent.

War and mayhem and cruel disease and sickness have been and will always be a part of this natural world.

The power of Jesus’s atonement is the only mitigating factor that can make everything right in the long run.

Secularism does not give any hope to the powerless and innocent in the face of evil.

As I think I’ve already said, God knows full well that this is a fallen world. A natural world where there are real world consequences for the actions that people make…both the good and the bad.

That’s VERY difficult for some people to accept especially if they have no hope of God’s love and and Christ’s mercy in the eternal scheme of things.

God is not at fault for the actions and choices that evil people make. But he will judge them accordingly and all will be made right.

There is a matter of trust involved. Do we and can we trust in God’s plan which involves free agency and that all will be made right through Christ’s Infinite Atonement?

As it is, you have failed to come up with a plan/schema for a better world in which there is no evil. You are essentially left in a position of no hope. You cannot stop the evil. It will always exist in the hearts of some men/women.

God and his Son are the only one’s that have planned for and created a plan by which all we compensated and rewarded according to their works in the flesh. Some are blessed with the faith to know and/or believe that this is so. That faith cannot be forced. It is a choice.

As is the belief in the plates and the angel that are part of the restoration narrative.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

If MG2.0’s ridiculously inept attempt at making the case for the plates existing represents the best evidence available, I’m astonished anyone really takes belief in them seriously. The Church itself now prefers to talk about a magic rock, as if that is more credible.

The rock exists in our space and time. The plates don’t. Again, you are asking for something that would have real world ramifications, and the question is whether or not those ramifications fit in with God’s plan which involves faith.

I’ve made the argument in this thread that those ramifications don’t fit in with God’s plan.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Basically, as long as a Mormon can keep Mormons blathering about their larp it’s all good.

Blathering?

Pot-Kettle

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Wow. A cornered rat bites.

Here she goes again…

Marcus, unless you have something to add to the discussion besides your usual shenanigans I’m going to take very little time responding to you.

I’d rather talk substance.

Regards,
MG