If plates then God

[Jersey Girl]

So if you are going to speak in terms of God, what God should/shouldn't do, what God does/doesn't do, I think you have it a little backwards. The answer to all your complaints is love. God doesn't lack love. Humans do. God has lovingly supplied us with all the resources we need to prevent suffering. We simply refuse to lovingly share them.

It's like you want God to come down here and show us what love is. Oh wait...

But don't go by me. I don't know anything about anything.

In any case, consider yourself lovingly corrected, lectured to, or told off, Sofee.

Agreed, to an extent, but that still leaves out God doing more when he could, thus leading to needless suffering that can be prevented. It makes God look like a sadist in so many ways. It wouldn't do anything to threaten anyone's free agency if God were to step in, like Mormonism claims he does for ridiculous reasons such as a stone in a hat, or losing car keys. There has to be more important reasons than helping someone find a mere dollar bill they lost, for God to intervene, yet in the most heinous cases, God remains aloof. That appears to me to be problematic is what I am saying.

Please list 5 types of needless suffering that could be prevented if only God would step in.

[Jersey Girl]

So if you are going to speak in terms of God, what God should/shouldn't do, what God does/doesn't do, I think you have it a little backwards. The answer to all your complaints is love. God doesn't lack love. Humans do. God has lovingly supplied us with all the resources we need to prevent suffering. We simply refuse to lovingly share them.

It's like you want God to come down here and show us what love is. Oh wait...

But don't go by me. I don't know anything about anything.

In any case, consider yourself lovingly corrected, lectured to, or told off, Sofee.

That’s victim blaming.

Victims of what and whom?

[Jersey Girl]

And don't bother to type out some nonsense that the Holy Spirit was with the woman who had her fingers chopped off in Hanoi by a man who proceeded to rape and murder her family in front of her eyes circa 761 AD.

- Doc

So I don't know what you're talking about there. Is that a real thing or are you using it as a symbol of human aggression and cruelty?

[MG 2.0]

He did step in 2000-ish years ago as Jesus Christ. He steps in as Holy Spirit to convict our hearts. He stays stepped in by indwelling believers with his Spirit. Evil has been, is being, and soon will be dealt with once for all.

We are guaranteed suffering in this earth life. We don’t have to go through it alone. I suppose the question is, how long do we experience suffering; for eternity or for earth life.


But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” Titus 3:4-7

May each and every one of us yield to the promptings of the Holy Spirit, and endure momentary suffering.

That's a bunch of nonsense gibberish that helps you deal with the harsh realities of an absurd universe that produces bone cancer and eyeball parasites - and is silent when a child is raped in a basement in a crappy town, say, in Soweto.

Sure, we humans are trying to do better, but what about the billions of humans who suffered horrific deaths, torture, abuse, and starvation because the gods stood passively by? And don't bother to type out some nonsense that the Holy Spirit was with the woman who had her fingers chopped off in Hanoi by a man who proceeded to rape and murder her family in front of her eyes circa 761 AD. This world is an unbelievably cruel place, and if an intelligence created it, he or she ain't tellin' us why while it stands by, despite what you think some dumb rubes said about the whole affair back in 100 AD.

- Doc

You may have learned along the way that mutations occur within the natural world. Genetic abnormalities occur.

You may also have noticed that no matter how many guide rails are put in place by good and decent people we still have a certain sub group of humanity that will, through their own violation and/or being subject to these same random mutations/genetic abnormalities, will do horrendous things that lead to terrible outcomes.

So you can choose to believe, and with good reason, that we live in an “absurd universe”. On the other hand if there is a God that created all, then all these things, both the good and the bad, are a compound in one. They are part of one grand plan which ultimately brings about the saving of souls and the redemption of ALL of mankind through the gifts and merits of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Secularists don’t have the answer to the so called absurdities except to posit that we live in a cold and heartless universe. The gospel of Christ teaches and gives hope to other alternatives. And that good will triumph over evil.

Regards,
MG

[huckelberry]

That’s victim blaming.

Victims of what and whom?

Jersey Girl, I got the impression your were blaming perpetrators of violence not victims.

[Res Ipsa]

I think the seriousness of suffering in this world always puts a question mark for Gods existence. Yet I have questions about how this matter is being approached in this thread.

First I notice that people are not taking the matter to heart and refusing to have children. Any child is exposed to the possiblity of being brutalized and the fact that we do not know in advance for sure which child does not change the fact that having children always moves toward the awful events happening to some children.

But the complaints are focused upon the idea that we all had a choice in some preexistence when a choice was presented which would avoid the misery. From my outside of Mormonism view I do not think an alternative workable choice existed. Dealing with evil is not a game or test set up for spirits to prove themselves. Evil , that desire to abuse,to take advantage of,is not some artificial fall up for our testing pleasure. It is an existential threat we have within ourselves as a human family. And to be sure our existence is possible only within being a part of the human family with its problems.

Whether a person believes that the atonement is literal and a power working into eternity or If one thinks it is conceptual working limited to living in the present it is more than a get out jail free card for some game of advancement. It is medicine to move the human race away from its predatory lusts and toward responsible caring for others.

I do not believe a Noah flood ever happened but the fiction is thought about the problem underdiscussion. It presents an alternative to making the best of the world we have.

" The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
[12] And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
[13] And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Trying to use an LDS thinking cap I can still see some of the same consideration. I see no reason to think that Satan plan would actually work. It would have been a deception to garner power and limit others. Of course thinking that would imply that all of those preexisting children were not all solid angels but would have been like the humans we know, a troublesome lot.

///////
Yes I can see the question , why no guard rails? Perhaps there is no God beyond our hope for improvement. Perhaps the problem of human evil cannot be cut out without it being fully confronted. I am not going to claim to know for sure.

I'm not sure you're thinking of me in your description, but I haven't been addressing anything other than MG 2.0's claim -- that he made about the plates -- that there are necessary parts of the plan of salvation that his God is powerless to have constructed any other way. Those parts include, necessarily, the beating, rape, torture and murder of children. The problem of evil is a problem for other God's than MG 2.0's, but my point is his ad hoc rationalizations about the plates require him to rationalize the horrific.

[huckelberry]

I think that trying to make rules about free agency is clumsy enough to be useless. On the one hand I find my agency is blocked, influenced, manipulated and helped by all sorts of circumstances. Yet despite all sorts of hindrance and abuse peoples agency continues unless they are totally defeated as in dying. I do not see how it makes much sense to say it is against the rules to harm free agency. Limiting free agency happens all the time. Legal and social sanctions apply force against bad behavior.

The other side of this observation is that human agency is a bit like a river flowing. If it is blocked it just finds a way around what is blocking it. I think the human creativity behind agency needs to be directed to new paths and away from destructive paths. Well maybe that is just stating what we all share some agreement on.

[Jersey Girl]

He did step in 2000-ish years ago as Jesus Christ. He steps in as Holy Spirit to convict our hearts. He stays stepped in by indwelling believers with his Spirit. Evil has been, is being, and soon will be dealt with once for all.

We are guaranteed suffering in this earth life. We don’t have to go through it alone. I suppose the question is, how long do we experience suffering; for eternity or for earth life.


But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” Titus 3:4-7

May each and every one of us yield to the promptings of the Holy Spirit, and endure momentary suffering.

That's a bunch of nonsense gibberish that helps you deal with the harsh realities of an absurd universe that produces bone cancer and eyeball parasites - and is silent when a child is raped in a basement in a crappy town, say, in Soweto.

Everything you mentioned are indeed examples of harsh realities. Where you attribute them to an absurd universe, a Christian believer attributes them to a corrupt creation due to sin on the part of humankind which is not very different than you concept of the absurd universe except for the fact that I don't think you are recognizing human nature and choices in your descriptions of it. So anyway, eyeball parasites, bone cancer, those types of severe medical diseases and illnesses, let's talk about that for a second. I was reading the other day about Jimmy Carter's upcoming 99th birthday celebration and read an article (CNN?) about his life and discovered something about him that was news to me. It had to do with heading a campaign to wipe out a devastating disease. So I followed the link and read about Guinea Worms.

Here is a link and I'll c/p and bold the part about where Carter gets involved. There's tons more information there but go to where that paragraph is and notice the chart. See how successful the campaign to eradicate the disease has been.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracunculiasis

Eradication
Main article: Eradication of dracunculiasis

Global dracunculiasis cases according to the World Health Organization, 1989–2021, displayed on a logarithmic scale.
The campaign to eradicate dracunculiasis began at the urging of the CDC in 1980.[34] Following smallpox eradication (last case in 1977; eradication certified in 1981), dracunculiasis was considered an achievable eradication target since it was relatively uncommon and preventable with only behavioral changes.[35] In 1981, the steering committee for the United Nations International Drinking Water Supply and Sanitation Decade (a program to improve global drinking water during the decade from 1981 to 1990) adopted the goal of eradicating dracunculiasis as part of their efforts.[36] The following June, an international meeting termed "Workshop on Opportunities for Control of Dracunculiasis" concluded that dracunculiasis could be eradicated through public education, drinking water improvement, and larvicide treatments.[36] In response, India began its national eradication program in 1983.[36] In 1986, the 39th World Health Assembly issued a statement endorsing dracunculiasis eradication and calling on member states to craft eradication plans.[35] The same year, The Carter Center began collaborating with the government of Pakistan to initiate its national program, which then launched in 1988.[36] By 1996, national eradication programs had been launched in every country with endemic dracunculiasis: Ghana and Nigeria in 1989; Cameroon in 1991; Togo, Burkina Faso, Senegal, and Uganda in 1992; Benin, Mauritania, Niger, Mali, and Côte d'Ivoire in 1993; Sudan, Kenya, Chad, and Ethiopia in 1994; Yemen and the Central African Republic in 1995.[35][37]

So I think that illustrates the point I've been trying to make with regard to to humans having been provided (by God or however you'd personally like to describe it) all the resources we need to end human suffering among those I would list intelligent science minded folk who are passion driven to research, organizations capable of delivering services worldwide, and individuals such as Carter using his own (he would say God given) resources to fund and grow such a campaign.

Sure, we humans are trying to do better, but what about the billions of humans who suffered horrific deaths, torture, abuse, and starvation because the gods stood passively by?

I would say that differently. But what about the billions of humans who suffered horrific deaths, torture, abuse and starvation because other humans stood passively by? Cam they're standing passively by right now. They're standing by and let Trump cut loose with violence encouraging rhetoric because he's about to lose his ass and the people who won't go up against him are worried about losing their own. Zelensky has to come begging on his knees for help when we're rolling in dough and our elected officials are fighting over it like a bunch of well paid adolscents? And then what? Putin mows down the Ukrainians and keeps moving Westward while the whole world flips out? What? Why? There are solutions to torture, abuse, starvation and even climate change and needs for potable drinking water. You know there are. What's the hold up? Politics? Greed? I think those are some answers to that. People vying for status and wealth, afraid to lose everything they have while a good portion of the planet has nothing.

What's gonna change that? God? God already offers a way to change that and it's being ignored. By humans.

I'll close with something not so God-ish, but just a little. I know you don't want to hear all that but thanks for bearing with me like you do.

One of my mentors in early childhood was an outstanding and talented (I would say genius level) early childhood professional, my guru the late Bev Bos. My Lord I cannot tell you how much I loved and respected this woman! I was privileged to spend two full weekends with her at conference and actually have time to speak with her one:one. She was like that. Anyway, when speaking about how adults respond when children make phenomenal messes while at play, her wisdom (and this was her way of explaining child development) was that a child needs to experience what too much is before they can know what enough is. Get that? She's talking about how children get in over their heads and end up with an overwhelming mess and how that contributes to them slowing becoming aware of the consequences of their choices so they slowly learn to put the brakes on a little in their play.

I see this world in the exact same way only I believe there is a Creator God who looks at us in the same exact way as any wise parent, teacher or ECE guru would look at us. We humans have a long history of making messes and getting in over our heads. We're doing it right this very minute in regards to climate change. We're throwing everything at it except our intellect. The ability to recognize the serious consequences of our behavior and our inability to put the brakes on and get to work and do something about it. We have the answers to climate change and all of the above so why aren't the changes happening or happening fast enough?

We want to challenge God believers about when is God going to swoop in and save us from ourselves? We want God to swoop in and put us in time out until we clean up our room or stop hurting our friends?

When, in this believing mind (at least), God has already given us what we need to solve the problems and we simply refuse to get down off our human high horses and use them?

And don't bother to type out some nonsense that the Holy Spirit was with the woman who had her fingers chopped off in Hanoi by a man who proceeded to rape and murder her family in front of her eyes circa 761 AD. This world is an unbelievably cruel place, and if an intelligence created it, he or she ain't tellin' us why while it stands by, despite what you think some dumb rubes said about the whole affair back in 100 AD.

- Doc

I don't like seeing you talk down to and disparage msnobody's comments as "nonsense" and "gibberish". I think we can receive alternative views without the curt dismissal. Lord knows I do it all the time if I post up here in Terrestrial or try to. She's expressing herself and using scripture to support her position. I purposely didn't supply scripture in my reply to you here but I can do that if you'd like because what I would choose to use to support my position from a believing perspective are the instances of God leaving humans up to their sinful nature when He'd already given them chance after chance to change their hearts and minds, they refused, and he left them to a collision course as a result of their runaway sin.

And recall what Bev Bos said... humans need to experience what too much is before humans know what enough is.

If you want to take God out of the picture, by all means. God belief isn't your position or worldview. So let's consider that. I think that if you use a sociological or psychological (or both) perspective, the problems will still stand as well will the solutions. That is to say, we have what we need to end suffering. We simply, as a collective, refuse to use what we have toward that effort.

[Jersey Girl]

I need to say a few things here. I know MG is on the thread and it looks like people are engaging him. I am sure they are aggravated with him as per usual. I haven't read any of his posts (ignore list) nor the responses to them. I've simply taken up a few comments from people I respect for response in order to express my opinions and thoughts on those comments, and see what they think about it.

Not one of those people is MG so please don't think I have anything to do with whatever he's up to here. I'm not particularly well so please don't draw me into whatever he's doing or mix me up with him. I don't have the bandwidth and I didn't come here for him. I came here to discuss ideas and think with my friends.

Period. End of MG story.

[Res Ipsa]

Trying to use an LDS thinking cap I can still see some of the same consideration. I see no reason to think that Satan plan would actually work. It would have been a deception to garner power and limit others. Of course thinking that would imply that all of those preexisting children were not all solid angels but would have been like the humans we know, a troublesome lot.

And yet that “Satan plan” is the the one that is being promoted by individuals on this thread, if I’m not mistaken. If the plates were accessible for all to see and understand as being evidence of God. If children were somehow free from any harm or abuse through absolute force from the ‘good guys’. In other words, a god of this world that required no faith, made it known that he was god, and gave evidences galore of that fact.

My question has consistently been concerned with what kind of world would that be.

There would be no faith in the earth. Just knowledge. And external force to do god’s bidding. Then for what purpose are we here?

The plates were evidence…but we are free to choose, based upon our faith, whether they are evidence of God. So much of what goes on in this world forces us to choose faith or doubt.

But fortunately no forces that disallow sin and disobedience. The opposite doesn’t provide a happy picture.

As it is, Mormonism teaches that we are here to prove ourselves.

And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them.
Abraham 3:25

Some are going to blow it big time. People are harmed as a result. But that’s not on God. He provided His Son to perform the infinite atonement. And until you folks can come up with a better plan that is not a clone of Satan’s plan I would suggest you not continue to rip on a God who may know a whole lot more than you do about what makes the plan of salvation tick and has failsafes in place.

No decent human being condones evil. But it exists in an imperfect world consisting of imperfect people.

The arrogance that needs to be maintained to play armchair god is almost unimaginable.

If I recall, Jesus had to put up with shenanigans from lawyers and hypocrites back in the day.

Regards,
MG

The arrogance of playing armchair God is all yours, MG 2.0. It is you that make claims that only your God can make: which, if any, of the thousands and thousands of events that constitute the restoration were necessary to bring about the plan of salvation. You have the arrogance to speak for God as to which, if any, of the pieces and consequences of the plan of salvation are necessary to bring about its goals. Yet you confidently declare that an unchangeable part of the plan is the necessary suffering of the innocent who need no redemption. But, it fact, you're speaking for your God out of complete ignorance. Do you have the "keys" to speak for your God?

IF you're accusing me of arguing for "Satan's plan," that's just a lie. Satan's plan is no freedom to choose to sin at all. I have explained to you over and over that I'm asking only about one of the millions of way to sin each of us have. Saying that being denied one of those millions of way -- abusing innocent children -- is Satan's plan would be just like me claiming that I have no free agency because it is impossible for me to cause children to burst into flame with my mind. If I don't have that specific way to sin, then I have no free agency whatsoever, right? We're in Satan's plan right now.

It is morally bankrupt to claim that a being that intentionally places innocent children in circumstances where it knows that the children will be beaten, raped, tortured and murdered. And it is also morally bankrupt to purchase your eternal salvation at that cost borne by innocent others. If that's the best plan you can imagine, then the rational answer is that there is no plan. Or, if there is a God with a plan, you don't have the faintest idea what it is.

By endorsing your God's plan of salvation, you are not just condoning evil -- you are purchasing your own eternal happiness on the backs of beaten, raped, tortured, and murdered innocent children. That's absolutely on you. In terms of the story, you are perfectly happy to live forever in Omelas.

If you need a story to give you purpose and hope, there are millions of possible stories out there. You are the one choosing the story in which you purchase your eternal happiness at a horrific cost. I'd suggest the humble position is to admit that, if your loving Creator God exists, you don't have the first idea of what and why he is doing.

I'm happy not imagining God's and plans. If there's actually a God out there, I suspect he gets that.