House Republicans in Disarray

[Manetho]

I agree...in that everything about the above says Gaetz and what he represents are clearly a threat to the entire democratic system. The issue is if bipartisan government and compromise is worth supporting. Apparently not.

Bipartisanship is not an end in itself. The key question when making any compromise is: what do we get out of it?

I agree that support for democracy is the essential issue right now, and all policy priorities have to be secondary. If the Democrats had the option to support a Republican speaker who were determined to defend democracy against Trumpists like Gaetz, they would certainly be obligated to take that option, no matter what policy disagreements they might have with that Republican. It would be a compromise well worth making. But I don't think there's anyone like that left in the House now that Cheney and Kinzinger are gone.

If McCarthy was any better than the likes of Gaetz on that front, it was largely in the realm of rhetoric, in that he expressed qualms after January 6 (that he promptly forgot about), and that he is probably less obsessed with snipe hunts like the impeachment inquiry than those people are. But he willingly submitted to those people in order to become speaker, accepting rules that left him vulnerable to exactly this kind of ouster. And if the Democrats had supported McCarthy, the challenges to his speakership would not have ended there. Gaetz or his ilk could have called another vote like this any time they were irritated with McCarthy, i.e., any time he showed any resistance to one of their snipe hunts or budget-negotiation tantrums. It's not clear that a House with McCarthy as speaker would be any more functional than a House with a more overtly inflammatory Republican in charge, and McCarthy certainly showed no interest in demonstrating that it would.

Res Ipsa's link, if correct, would strengthen my point: McCarthy's deal to keep the government open for 45 days was actually an attempt to cause a shutdown in such a way that the Democrats could be more easily blamed. It seems he was actively trying to be as malicious an actor as the far right wanted him to be, and they kicked him out not because he refused but because he did it badly.

[Res Ipsa]

Yes, it's a saying. But it's not a universally true saying. I'd suggest that the more applicable saying is "politics makes strange bedfellows." Sometimes even bitter political opponents vote the same on a specific issue for wildly different reasons. The position that Matt Gaetz takes on any action should not determine what is in the Democratic Party's or the country's best interests. That's the kind of reactive political view that has led the Republican party to be largely an "own the libs" party.

I agree...in that everything about the above says Gaetz and what he represents are clearly a threat to the entire democratic system. The issue is if bipartisan government and compromise is worth supporting. Apparently not.

If McCarthy as speaker had acted to solve problems in a bipartisan manner by rejecting the demands of the Freedom Caucus in favor of working with Democrats, I would agree. But in his nine months as speaker, that's not what he's done. The only time he's reached across the aisle is when his back has been to the wall and he needed to avoid a government shutdown that would have been disastrous for his party. Otherwise, he may just as well have been a member of the Freedom Caucus.

I think it's reasonable to conclude that McCarthy as speaker was not a path toward bipartisanship. I think he performed much more as an obstacle than as a facilitator when it comes to bipartisanship. The only viable path in that direction is a speaker who will give the Freedom Caucus the single finger salute and work with Democrats on solving problems that face the country. McCarthy clearly was not that speaker.

[honorentheos]

Politics is an art, where position and advancement are achieved over time as positions evolve and change. I don't see the move to side with Gaetz as advantageous for democracy but am resigned to watching how it plays out. If I had to pick a side between Gaetz and McCarthy I wouldn't feel like it is a great choice either way so I understand that. But one of those options sides squarely with the death of democracy while the other was spineless. Oh well.

[ajax18]

Politics is an art, where position and advancement are achieved over time as positions evolve and change. I don't see the move to side with Gaetz as advantageous for democracy but am resigned to watching how it plays out. If I had to pick a side between Gaetz and McCarthy I wouldn't feel like it is a great choice either way so I understand that. But one of those options sides squarely with the death of democracy while the other was spineless. Oh well.

The death of democracy is in your Clinton reprogramming camps for deplorables. What you want is socialism and the end of economic nationalism. Even if only 25% of US registered voters want that, you'd still call it's defeat in a fair election the death of democracy. Don't pretend like you want democracy. At least I admit that majorities can be tyrannical and that I don't particularly like Democracy much more than a monarchy. You just reinvent meanings for the word democracy and try make it equivalent to your crazy left wing views of virtue, open borders (until you start losing elections for doing it), miltary spending (when it's on a country financially tied to Democrats and establishment Republicans), rule of law (when it's right wing protesters not BLM 2020 rioters) etc.

It's Democrats who have undermined the House of Representatives as an institution by voting with Gates. They also crossed the line by throwing Republicans off committees and cry when Republicans return the favor. Think you can't open an impeachment inquiry without a vote? Not since 2019, who set that new precedent? Obstructing a congressional vote merits a 20 year prison sentence? What about a Democrat congressman who pulls a fire alarm and his only defense is that he couldn't read the words "Fire Alarm." Do you believe this Congressman was that illiterate and uneducated? Or do you just believe obstructing the vote was necessary by any means necessary and congressman who engage in antidemocratic acts such as this should be protected?

[honorentheos]

Politics is an art, where position and advancement are achieved over time as positions evolve and change. I don't see the move to side with Gaetz as advantageous for democracy but am resigned to watching how it plays out. If I had to pick a side between Gaetz and McCarthy I wouldn't feel like it is a great choice either way so I understand that. But one of those options sides squarely with the death of democracy while the other was spineless. Oh well.

The death of democracy is in your Clinton reprogramming camps for deplorables. What you want is...

What I want is what, again? Please feel free to back up your claims with quotes. I've been around long enough.

[Kishkumen]

What if Republicans all have been infected with MAGA lunacy and the rational Republicans have already been driven off?
Seems the country's best hope is for voters to come to their senses and vote against the Cult of Trump. Taking a sledgehammer to America is not the answer.

Good thoughts, Moksha. I agree that voting against Trump is the best answer. Taking a sledgehammer to the GOP is not the same thing as taking a sledgehammer to America, no?

Parties come and go. They are not sacrosanct.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

The death of democracy is in your Clinton reprogramming camps for deplorables. What you want is...

What I want is what, again? Please feel free to back up your claims with quotes. I've been around long enough.

He just saw a headline on drudge, that’s all.

- Doc

[Res Ipsa]

Politico published a piece by several authors on the topic of whether democracy is broken: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... p-00120170

The New Republic published a piece by Norman Ornstein that discussed how McCarthy -- the last of the GOP "Young Guns" -- created the conditions that toppled him as speaker. https://newrepublic.com/article/176035/ ... ker-demise

[Res Ipsa]

Latest buzz on the new speaker. Scalise and Jordan say they are running. McCarthy said he was out last week, but said today he's also running. Fox scheduled a Town Hall for tonight for S & J, but dropped it when it went over like a lead balloon. Instead, House Rs will have a private meeting today. Tuesday at 5 will be a private, eyes only, candidate forum for Rs only. Wednesday is another closed door meeting at which there is supposed to be a private vote for speaker, with the winner to be presented to the full house at a date to be named later.

Meanwhile, the House is in limbo other than evicting Democrats from offices.

[Gunnar]

Being candid, I'm disappointed in the House Democrats. Participating in punishing the closest thing to bipartisanship we have seen in the House is not good for the health of our government.

I understand your point. House Democrats could easily have prevented the ouster of McCarthy from the speakership position had they wanted to and thereby at least minimally reduced the current chaos resulting from the position being vacated. McCarthy was far from an ideal House Speaker, but I have very little confidence that any Republican currently vying for the position would be better, or even as good.