If plates then God

[Rivendale]

And Deutero Issiah adds to the problems. And why the errors? And what about Adam Clark's commentary plagerism. Also the literary capability at the time was mainly ritualistic and not narrative.

I am not an authority Deutero-Isaiah but here is an apologetic source for outside observers of this thread:

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/arc ... -of-Mormon

It seems as though this is an unsettled question along with others.

But the fact remains, however one chooses to skirt around it, that it would have been very unlikely for Joseph Smith to have written the Book of Mormon on his own.

I again refer readers to this essay:

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... y-sources/

A long read, but worth it.

Of course if you’re of the same mind as Dr. Steuss and make a mockery of the whole thing by throwing out:

Gods and angels, all the way down. Miracles galore!

Then what Brian Hales or anyone else has to say in regards to the veracity of the traditional narrative of the Book of Mormon is going to be the ramblings of a deluded crackpot.

Regards,
MG

David Bokovoy addresses the apologetics here.

Without the biblical book of Isaiah, the Book of Mormon would not exist. Isaiah appears directly cited, echoed, or alluded to throughout the entire work. For many years, Mormon apologists have struggled to reconcile their belief in the book as an authentic work from antiquity with the fact that the Book of Mormon relies so heavily upon the exilic chapters of Isaiah, which the Book of Mormon anachronistically presents as pre-exilic material. This underlying assumption reflects Joseph Smith’s own early nineteenth century beliefs regarding Isaianic authorship. However, Smith's understanding, and by extension, the one featured in the Book of Mormon, is not a reflection of historical reality.

Simply put, if the Book of Mormon is what most Latter-day Saints assume, namely an authentic ancient translation of a historical record from antiquity, then the Isaianic material scholars refer to as Deutero-Isaiah should not appear cited throughout the work. Yet it does, extensively.

Apologists addressing this issue have frequently noted that not withstanding this serious challenge to their beliefs, at least the Book of Mormon never presents the final ten chapters of Isaiah as pre-exilic material. And this is significant.

Since 1892, biblical scholars have recognized that Isaiah 56-66 contain an anthology of approximately twelve passages of oracles written by unknown prophets in the years immediately following the Jewish return from Babylon. If this post-exilic material appeared in the Book of Mormon, it would prove detrimental to traditional claims that the book is an ancient record.

Unfortunately, Mormon apologists who attempted to address these issues have had very little exposure to critical research on Isaiah. In reality, the Book of Mormon relies heavily upon what scholars refer to as Trito-Isaiah. Not only are these post-exilic chapters sometimes cited and alluded to throughout the book, the editors responsible for this final addition to the Isaianic corpus shaped the material the Book of Mormon cites as authentic pre-exilic Isaianic prophecies.

Without the book of Isaiah, the Book of Mormon would not exist. And its extensive reliance upon the post-exilic shaping of Isaiah helps scholars establish the Book of Mormon’s nineteenth century origins, and therefore, the original context or historical Sitz im Leben by which the book should be interpreted.

Or in other words, after an extended break of serious soul searching, I feel it's high time for me to return to my passion for critical scholarship and the way it helps contextualize religious texts. Because there is a lot to say about this exciting topic that helps us to better understand the Book of Mormon.

Colby Townsend and I are in the process of co-authoring an article on the subject. Whereas my own studies have primarily focused upon Deutero-Isaiah in the Book of Mormon, Colby has done extensive research on Trito-Isaiah that has significantly enhanced my understanding of the issue.

Eta. I will take Dr Bokovoy's account over Hales or fairmormon neither of which have exposure to critical research of Isaiah.

[Doctor Steuss]

Wow, that's some fascinating history, Dr. Steuss. I came late to the apologetics viewing party, as it were. Even though I left the LDS church in the late 80's, I didn't return to the post Mormon scene for more than 25 years.

I originally entered the ole apologetics scene shortly after the formation/migration of the FAIR board. I left somewhere mid-way into the ever-affable Blair Hodges (one of the few people from the ole internets I've had the pleasure to meet with in person) and others began the creation/maintenance of the FAIR wiki.

Unrelated, but being on "both sides" (for lack of a better way of putting it) really opened my eyes when Dr. Hamblin passed away. Seeing some people's memories of negative interactions with him seemed so foreign to me. He was always incredibly kind to me, and generous with knowledge and time. He helped me quite a bit on a hobby project of mine, on the utilization of thunder in the ANE as a way in which deity transmitted esoteric knowledge. Dr. Peterson has also always been kind to me (I helped him with a footnote that had been evading him for an anti-Mormon trope many, many, many... many years ago). But, my (somewhat personal) interactions have also primarily been when I wasn't critical of the Church. Maybe they would be different now? Or maybe they'd be the same? *shrug*

When I saw (and have continued to see) many of those accounts of negative interactions, it made me think back on my own actions and interactions when I was a hobby apologist, and how unkind and dismissive I was to people who were so much more intelligent and knowledgeable than me (and showed much more grace than I ever deserved). One in particular that comes to mind and is a source of personal shame and embarrassment is how I often treated Miss Jack in interactions.

When you think you are defending something that's divine, it's easy to think that general societal norms of decorum no longer apply to you. I remember often, when watching Paharon interact with critics, finding pleasure in how poorly he treated them. It was a kind of gleeful "taste of their own medicine, for daring to profane the sacred."

I formed some incredible online friendships though during those low-level hobby apologist days, that even as I've failed to maintain meaningful contact with, I still cherish deeply, and love the individuals dearly. Mike Reed, David Bokovoy, Blair Hodges, and Don Bradley (from the [in some cases former] believing Mormon scholarship camp) hold dear places in my heart. I even managed to form "friendships" with quite a few critics during that time (Chris Smith, and CK Salmon come to mind).

ETA: Ironically, Don Bradley was a non-believer, and I was an apologist at the time we became online friends. A snake-head-eating-the-snake-on-the-opposite-side.

[MG 2.0]

Wow, that's some fascinating history, Dr. Steuss. I came late to the apologetics viewing party, as it were. Even though I left the LDS church in the late 80's, I didn't return to the post Mormon scene for more than 25 years.

I originally entered the ole apologetics scene shortly after the formation/migration of the FAIR board. I left somewhere mid-way into the ever-affable Blair Hodges (one of the few people from the ole internets I've had the pleasure to meet with in person) and others began the creation/maintenance of the FAIR wiki.

Unrelated, but being on "both sides" (for lack of a better way of putting it) really opened my eyes when Dr. Hamblin passed away. Seeing some people's memories of negative interactions with him seemed so foreign to me. He was always incredibly kind to me, and generous with knowledge and time. He helped me quite a bit on a hobby project of mine, on the utilization of thunder in the ANE as a way in which deity transmitted esoteric knowledge. Dr. Peterson has also always been kind to me (I helped him with a footnote that had been evading him for an anti-Mormon trope many, many, many... many years ago). But, my (somewhat personal) interactions have also primarily been when I wasn't critical of the Church. Maybe they would be different now? Or maybe they'd be the same? *shrug*

When I saw (and have continued to see) many of those accounts of negative interactions, it made me think back on my own actions and interactions when I was a hobby apologist, and how unkind and dismissive I was to people who were so much more intelligent and knowledgeable than me (and showed much more grace than I ever deserved). One in particular that comes to mind and is a source of personal shame and embarrassment is how I often treated Miss Jack in interactions.

When you think you are defending something that's divine, it's easy to think that general societal norms of decorum no longer apply to you. I remember often, when watching Paharon interact with critics, finding pleasure in how poorly he treated them. It was a kind of gleeful "taste of their own medicine, for daring to profane the sacred."

I formed some incredible online friendships though during those low-level hobby apologist days, that even as I've failed to maintain meaningful contact with, I still cherish deeply, and love the individuals dearly. Mike Reed, David Bokovoy, Blair Hodges, and Don Bradley (from the [in some cases former] believing Mormon scholarship camp) hold dear places in my heart. I even managed to form "friendships" with quite a few critics during that time (Chris Smith, and CK Salmon come to mind).

ETA: Ironically, Don Bradley was a non-believer, and I was an apologist at the time we became online friends. A snake-head-eating-the-snake-on-the-opposite-side.

Thank you so much for sharing this post and the one shared earlier and giving a bit of your personal history. I appreciate that. There are so few people here who are vulnerable in presenting their ‘Mormon history’.

I remember Pahoran. He was a rather brash fellow who decided he was going to take no prisoners and went to great lengths to try and tear people and their ideas apart. This was back in the ZLMB days. Then came NOM and the Cultural Hall/Foyer (I can’t remember now which one it was called).

I would be interested to know if your name would ring a bell for me. Most of the others you named I remember.

What would be of more interest, at least to me, is the story behind going from apologist to nonbeliever in Mormonism. Would you be willing to share?

I love learning/hearing the Mormon Stories people have. For years I listened to Dehlin’s podcast.

Anyway, if you feel so disposed to do so I would find your path from believer to non believer worth the time to read if you would be willing to share. Along with that, if you do share a bit of your history in and out of the church, would you also tell us how you transitioned from the spiritual foundation (Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father) to a position of agnostic/atheist (or whatever your position is nowadays in regards to God).

Honestly, as I compare your voice to a number of the other voices here yours is one of the more level headed sane voices. Not to put the other voices down as being literally insane…not at all…but yours usually sits above the fray without all the attached innuendo, back biting, word twisting, and such.

Hope to hear your Mormon Story!

If not, maybe it’s available somewhere?

Thanks.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...I would be interested to know if your name would ring a bell for me. Most of the others you named I remember.

What would be of more interest, at least to me, is the story behind going from apologist to nonbeliever in Mormonism. Would you be willing to share?...

Big, big BIG red flag here.

Unles Stuess has already outed himself elsewhere, or doesn't have any concerns about privacy, i would recommend NOT sharing anything in real life with mg.

Sorry, mentalgymnast, but you have no credibility in this respect. You fishing for in real life details is a very serious concern.

[MG 2.0]

...I would be interested to know if your name would ring a bell for me. Most of the others you named I remember.

What would be of more interest, at least to me, is the story behind going from apologist to nonbeliever in Mormonism. Would you be willing to share?...

Big, big BIG red flag here.

Unles Stuess has already outed himself elsewhere, or doesn't have any concerns about privacy, i would recommend NOT sharing anything in real life with mg.

Sorry, mentalgymnast, but you have no credibility in this respect. You fishing for in real life details is a very serious concern.

I’ll leave that up to him. All I can say is I have no personal ulterior motives. I am fine if there isn’t any personal/identifiable information given if he chooses not to share it.

I simply have an interest in the details of what leads someone who was at one time a true believer to the place where they are not. Especially someone of Dr. Steuss’s background.

Maybe he’s been on Mormon Stories and I’ve already seen/heard him!

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Big, big BIG red flag here.

Unles Stuess has already outed himself elsewhere, or doesn't have any concerns about privacy, i would recommend NOT sharing anything in real life with mg.

Sorry, mentalgymnast, but you have no credibility in this respect. You fishing for in real life details is a very serious concern.

I’ll leave that up to him. All I can say is I have no personal ulterior motives. I am fine if there isn’t any personal/identifiable information given if he chooses not to share it.

I simply have an interest in the details of what leads someone who was at one time a true believer to the place where they are not. Especially someone of Dr. Steuss’s background.

Maybe he’s been on Mormon Stories and I’ve already seen/heard him!

Regards,
MG

Lovely thoughts. Still not credible. The history of Mormon apologists using in real life details of those online they don't like is well established.

Please don't fish for in real life details.

[Doctor Steuss]

I would be interested to know if your name would ring a bell for me. Most of the others you named I remember.

Unlikely. I believe my in real life name might be in two footnotes out there, as a "thank you" for hunting down something illusive for someone, but for the most part I've used a pseudonym of some sort and never had the intellect, or attention span to produce anything of merit.

What would be of more interest, at least to me, is the story behind going from apologist to nonbeliever in Mormonism. Would you be willing to share?

It's pretty milquetoast. I don't know that there was ever a definitive turning point. Like many people (believing, and not), there were lots of "shelf" moments -- some deeply emotional, and some mostly intellectual. I think one key moment happened here when I was a believer, where I had commented about a few of the ANE parallels within the Book of Mormon that I saw. I believe it was Dr. W who pointedly asked me if any of those parallels couldn't be explained by a 19ths century origin. I took his question seriously... and the answer I found for myself was "no."

I've shared the story here previously, of one of the hardest moments that leaned pretty hard on me on the emotional belief side. I won't tell the whole thing again here, but the short version is I had all the faith in the world I could be healed of something that has almost taken my life several times, since I was about twelve years old. I was about 23 at the time, and had almost died again that year. My Dad put his hands on my head, with my brothers at his sides, paused for an eternity, and finally said "Your Heavenly Father doesn't want you to be healed at this time." Years later, my Mom told me about the months of deep depression my Dad fell into as a result of that moment. Any belief system that would put a father through that kind of pain didn't sit right with me. Any deity who would want someone to keep suffering like I had didn't seem right to me. But... I put it on the shelf, and that shelf held for probably another decade at least. Ironically (or not, I guess?), it was more intellectual reasons than emotional ones that eventually broke the shelf.

I'm still a member on the books. My (I think agnostic?) Jewish son will say a Mormon-style blessing when my parents ask if he'd like to bless the food when he's at their house. I go to some ward functions at my parents' ward sometimes, and when able I have always gone to support my dad and brothers when they've been set apart for demanding callings (although, I was pretty sour that they tagged my dad for a calling somewhat recently, given his health and what the calling is doing to him physically/emotionally). I don't have animosity towards Mormons, or Mormonism in a more general sense. I definitely have problems with some founding individuals like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and with the harm done by the current corporate Church. When I would attend (Jewish) temple with my then-wife, I was affectionately referred to as "the Mormon" (even though I was agnostic by that time) and it was never a name I felt offended to have amongst my Jewish community. Even though I haven't been to temple in a long time, and pretty much abandoned attempts at being kosher: I'm Jewish. Even though I don't believe in any of it, and don't go to church: I'm Mormon. Even though I haven't lived there since I was 8: I'm a southern Utahn. Mormonism is a key component of who I am. Amongst my immediate relatives are a General Authority, and a Temple President (previously mission president). My grandfather had a few amusing personal stories involving LeGrande Richards. At my heart, I'm a Mormon pioneer who has never pioneered... and doesn't really "Mormon." It's just a core piece of "me."

I think that my journey out of the Church is more of a series of footnotes in the story of my life, than a key chapter. It'd make for a spectacularly boring Mormon-related podcast. The only highlights would be the amazing people I've been blessed to know... and maybe the time I accidentally opened as a solo act for Miranda Lambert once at the Texas Motor Speedway.

[MG 2.0]

I would be interested to know if your name would ring a bell for me. Most of the others you named I remember.

Unlikely. I believe my in real life name might be in two footnotes out there, as a "thank you" for hunting down something illusive for someone, but for the most part I've used a pseudonym of some sort and never had the intellect, or attention span to produce anything of merit.

What would be of more interest, at least to me, is the story behind going from apologist to nonbeliever in Mormonism. Would you be willing to share?

It's pretty milquetoast. I don't know that there was ever a definitive turning point. Like many people (believing, and not), there were lots of "shelf" moments -- some deeply emotional, and some mostly intellectual. I think one key moment happened here when I was a believer, where I had commented about a few of the ANE parallels within the Book of Mormon that I saw. I believe it was Dr. W who pointedly asked me if any of those parallels couldn't be explained by a 19ths century origin. I took his question seriously... and the answer I found for myself was "no."

I've shared the story here previously, of one of the hardest moments that leaned pretty hard on me on the emotional belief side. I won't tell the whole thing again here, but the short version is I had all the faith in the world I could be healed of something that has almost taken my life several times, since I was about twelve years old. I was about 23 at the time, and had almost died again that year. My Dad put his hands on my head, with my brothers at his sides, paused for an eternity, and finally said "Your Heavenly Father doesn't want you to be healed at this time." Years later, my Mom told me about the months of deep depression my Dad fell into as a result of that moment. Any belief system that would put a father through that kind of pain didn't sit right with me. Any deity who would want someone to keep suffering like I had didn't seem right to me. But... I put it on the shelf, and that shelf held for probably another decade at least. Ironically (or not, I guess?), it was more intellectual reasons than emotional ones that eventually broke the shelf.

I'm still a member on the books. My (I think agnostic?) Jewish son will say a Mormon-style blessing when my parents ask if he'd like to bless the food when he's at their house. I go to some ward functions at my parents' ward sometimes, and when able I have always gone to support my dad and brothers when they've been set apart for demanding callings (although, I was pretty sour that they tagged my dad for a calling somewhat recently, given his health and what the calling is doing to him physically/emotionally). I don't have animosity towards Mormons, or Mormonism in a more general sense. I definitely have problems with some founding individuals like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and with the harm done by the current corporate Church. When I would attend (Jewish) temple with my then-wife, I was affectionately referred to as "the Mormon" (even though I was agnostic by that time) and it was never a name I felt offended to have amongst my Jewish community. Even though I haven't been to temple in a long time, and pretty much abandoned attempts at being kosher: I'm Jewish. Even though I don't believe in any of it, and don't go to church: I'm Mormon. Even though I haven't lived there since I was 8: I'm a southern Utahn. Mormonism is a key component of who I am. Amongst my immediate relatives are a General Authority, and a Temple President (previously mission president). My grandfather had a few amusing personal stories involving LeGrande Richards. At my heart, I'm a Mormon pioneer who has never pioneered... and doesn't really "Mormon." It's just a core piece of "me."

I think that my journey out of the Church is more of a series of footnotes in the story of my life, than a key chapter. It'd make for a spectacularly boring Mormon-related podcast. The only highlights would be the amazing people I've been blessed to know... and maybe the time I accidentally opened as a solo act for Miranda Lambert once at the Texas Motor Speedway.

Thanks for sharing! One more thing. Solo act for Miranda Lambert? Accidental?

Do tell. Are you a cowboy?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Of course you are free to think and believe that, but I think there is enough evidence to consider a different alternative. That the Book of Mormon is a special case.

Just wondering…have you read all the way through the Hales essay I’ve linked to a couple of times now?

Regards,
MG

No.

I was a subscriber to the Review for years. I still have binders of the pre-three-hole-punched "occasional papers" FARMS would put out. I partially wrote/edited quite a few FAIR wiki articles that you have ironically shared over the years.

I've read the primary sources. I don't have much interest at this point in my life devoting my time and energy to reading new articles by people with a history of lazy apologetics based on hand-waving, and selective ignorance of sources. If Hales had demonstrated himself at some point as a serious thinker, and historian, I might be tempted.

In a nutshell, why do you consider Brian Hales to be a purveyor of lazy apologetics? After all, he does have a serious day job. What is it about the way he does history and analysis that you find disconcerting?

That he has a testimony along with his knowledge of Mormon history?

I still read things by people like Kevin Barney, Ben McGuire, and Don Bradley though (when my own declining cognitive abilities allow). While I disagree with them often (particularly when it comes to matters of faith), they've repeatedly demonstrated themselves to be pursuers of truth, rather than people who start with the conclusion and slice-and-dice the data to agree.

I came across Kevin Barney years ago, he had some interesting views in regards to the Book of Abraham that I found palatable.

Regards,
MG

[Gadianton]

Maybe they would be different now?

Without question.